[Ttah]

Quick Version

• Disallowing stamina pots, itself, is not a huge deal. It does affect necros who use stamina, and does let melee kite casters around and heal potting. The current fix, is not ideal - and most of us think it should have been fixed in a more rational way. But, in itself, is not a game breaker.

• The changes to CC are unacceptable. Its not the range. Few casters care about the range. The issue is Silence is not considered a major cc despite the fact it locks down a caster. In addition hox silence has no immunity counter. If casters could stun melee classes without imparting any immunities the melee community would have a stroke. This IS a game breaker.

• You have to create a silence break. Every other cc in the game has a break you can feat into, or get through normal progression. The idea that you might think about adding one after classifying silence as minor is unacceptable. You have to add one - period.

• Mage classes (necro, tos, pom and demo) should refrain from raids, or minis, until funcom fixes the situation. In the meantime, just roll some melee toon and pretend they take an enormous about of skill that exceeds that required to play your caster, even though you are just hitting buttons in a slightly different order - make a ranger or something. This is a request for unilateral action which won't happen in all likelyhood.

No matter how even handed I attempt to be in the following, someone is going to call it a QQ rant - so be it.

With the recent changes in the latest patch, certain 'problems' have come to the fore showing a serious lack of knowledge when it comes to game mechanics, pvp tactics, and the overall abilities of certain classes.

Basically, this is the patch melee players have been dying to see implemented. I can see their points, which I will address, but the whole dichotomy of 'age of casters' vs. 'age of conan' is a canard.

So lets look at some common statements culled from global on Cimmeria and in various threads (pvp sections, general, and class forums). For the sake of transparency I have a rank 5 lvl 80 necro (Grelithe), a lvl 80 Hox (Tthorarth), a lvl 73 Bear Shaman (Grimfaust) and a Dark Templar and PoM below 25 I am working on when I am bored. I have deleted a 57 ToS and my necro is my second one, having deleted a lvl 78 Necro I made at launch to start over and re-learn the game's mechanics since it changed quite a bit with 1.04

Misconceptions and Accusations:

• Casters require no aiming when using spells or cc
  Many of the pve type dmg spells either require a mob be targeted, or an area be targeted by dragging a circle around to the area of effect. In either case, the spells are being targeted to a specific area or to a specific mob or player. Some spells such as gelid bones once feated (It requires the necro to feat almost to the bottom of NF) can be used as an ae cc with a single target. But a target is still required. And within the necro arsenal, only 1 cc (frost blast) can be used without a specific target and it is considered a minor cc and already requires the targets to be within melee range. Hox have WoC (word of command) which is also a root, and also requires the targets to be in melee range. Out of all the classes I know and have played, every spell or cc requires a specific target, and if they don't, it's usually a single 'oh crap' melee range type of cc.
  
  On the flip side, My hox and bs require little, if any targeting. I can run in, fire off a combo without needing to target anything or anyone. My CCs do not require I target anyone, most heals do not require I target anyone, and the only downside is that my splash dmg is lowered on mobs or people the game has not auto-selected. Even this element, I have heard, has been modified so that melee splash dmg has increased. In addition, melee, just like mages, can use dots, bleeds or poisons to effect every mob in melee range without a reduction in dmg.

• Melee require more skill to play because of the combo system and movement
  Most melee combos have 2 elements built into them. First you have a series of white hits (whose dmg is nominal) and a final big hit that takes place after 2-4 combo strikes. In addition to this, melee have to chase their mob or player around to score damage. However, regardless of how far or quickly the person or mob runs, the dmg is landed if the p/mob is within melee range at the time the button is pressed. This effectively negates the melee animation that occurs at the end of a combo, which is important to remember. What most people see is a caster scoring a hit, at range, without moving.
  
  If we contrast the current combo system to casters we see a similar system at work. All spells have 3 elements to them. First, a caster will have a series of spells or abilities that have to be selected in the right order. Each successive action nets the caster a small amount of dmg that is almost directly parallel to the sequence of white hits a melee type character has to go through. These small steps do lead up to a large hit. Typically, players only notice the large hit, not the 3 to 4 spells that were put in place for the larger spell to work. A good example is the necro who has to use a minimum of 2 spells to do any real dmg (PB+ chill) and several dots so that pets or group mates can do more dmg.
  
  Of course, the more stubborn minded melee players will see no equivalency to pressing 2,3,5,6 and pressing 5, 1,4,3,v. But there is no arguing with people who think pressing buttons to achieve one effect is different than pressing buttons to achieve a wholly different effect, they are making an argument without a distinction.
  
  Which brings up the second element to caster 'combos', the cast times and immobility. During the build up of melee combos, it is only during the last combo strike that melee lose control of their character, while casters are immobile for the duration of their combos. Sure, the smaller mage combo strikes can be done in .5 to 1 second, but all the big hits take 2-5 seconds long at which time the caster is rooted and takes full dmg should they be hit.
  
  Which brings up the 3rd element of mage combos. Line of Sight. Each spell has 2 checks for line of sight. The first occurs at the start of a cast, the second check is made at the end. So even if a caster begins to cast while the target is in LOS, if they break LOS the combo fails unlike the melee combo where los and distance has no effect so long as the first check succeeds.
  

• Finally, casters can be killed, this patch balanced casters
  It is a common belief, large due to skewed K/d ratios that casters were/are gods in pvp. Many people believe the nerf to cc and to stam pots has put casters and melee on equal ground.
  
  Melee have always been able to kill casters with relative ease in group pvp skirmishes. Where as, most casters kill melee in 1v1 situations. A properly specced sin, before this patch, could kill any casting class without much effort. To those who would dispute this, I point out 2 abilities which make sins ideal mage killers. First they can feat so that any spell crit landed on them makes them immune to further damage for a set period of time, second, silence. A mage who cannot cast is a dead mage.
  
  In 1v1 melee, casters had the option of kiting and avoiding the more nefarious control abilities of many classes, but despite this many melee have the ability to 'charge' the caster, thereby saving stam, breaking snares, and leveling the play field. Now casters do not have the option of running. Necros will not be able to cast specific spells because they require stamina, and melee will and can kite casters when their health is low.
  
  In addition to this, a change had been made to the spell resistance of all soldier classes, specifically the guardian, which combined with their hp, makes them extremely hard to kill using magic (which used to be their Achilles heal). It is not uncommon to hear DTs specced for flag carrying duty to be referred to as a 'Raid Boss".

• K/D ratios on casters prove they needed to be nerfed
  Caster k/d ratios are meaningless because their combos generally require the application and reapplication of dots or nukes to a p/mob making it much more likely they will score the killing blow in group encounters. In addition, many players are adept at hiding and not being noticed, allowing them to continue to dot as many people as possible. If FC changed the way kills are recorded, much like they dole out pxp, so that the person doing the most dmg gets the point, most caster k/d's will go down.
  
  Regardless of this, many players seem oblivious to the concept that mages are THE dps classes, and in exchange for this power, they are glass canons. The same concept applies to the hox or the sin who both wear cloth armour and do sickening amounts of dmg. The skill to inflict copious amounts of dmg is not sufficiently different between the archtypes. The argument would be more properly framed as, ranged dps gets better k/d ratios than melee oriented classes. Which again, is a falsehood given good conqs, dts and guardians can often walk out of a mini with 10kills 0deaths or better.

• Casters are only QQing because of the stam pot issue
  Stam pots is a part of the problem. No one likes to be kited. Sure you can gleefully hackle, recalling a past memory where some mage kited and killed you. But that is how mages work. They don't do well standing toe to toe with melee classes, and do even worse when snared and silenced.
  
  If anyone looked at the issue, not from the point of view of whats best for their particular class, but what makes sense, it would quickly become clear that this 'fix' has broken every mage class.
  
  A man wearing 60 pounds of sheet metal and carrying a 10-20 pound weapon plus a 30 pound shield chasing a man in a light silk robe is not going to have the endurance to keep up for long. Sure, his conditioning might be better, and he would certainly have no issues keeping up in light armour or cloth. But the idea he could even come close to keeping up over extended periods of time is laughable, unless the mage is so woefully out of shape or has asthma.
  
  So if we just look at the issue without trying to grasp exceptions or extremes we can see that the postulate is unreasonable, and demands made that this happen, are, again, unreasonable.
  
  Now, the pots themselves; One has to ask who would be more proficient using a magical elixir that gives a person enhanced stamina regeneration? I don't think many soldiers sit around learning the intimate details of chemistry - after all, isn't the crux of their argument that melee classes spend all their spare time training and working out giving them their endurance while mages atrophy with their noses in books mixing concoctions?
  
  It just doesn't make sense, on any level, that a mage could not use a stamina potion. The only way this makes sense is if FC decided to cave in to player demands and took the easiest possible way to stop casters from kiting melee.
  
  What would make sense is if FC created an algorithm that used up stamina with every combo move according to the size or category of weapon or shield being wielded and when sprinting, increase or decrease the stamina used depending on the weight of the armour worn. Unfortunately, there is no way around soldiers being winded when chasing someone in cloth. No man, regardless of conditioning or strength, is going to last long running after someone while wearing platemail, or mail. If weight was taken into account, sins would have no issue overcoming casters, hoxes slightly less so, barbarians could at least keep up, and those in medium or higher would feel the strain.
  
  In addition, they need to stop being lazy and recode the way stamina is used from a percentage to a numerical amount, allowing for smaller mage pools of stamina, and greater drains on stamina pools to account for weapon and armour weight.
  
  If any class could not use stamina pots, it should be soldiers, not mages. The fix, while making it much easier to kill casters, makes no sense, and is reflective more of a percentage of the player base simply wanting revenge that addressing an ongoing problem pointed out by virtually the entire player base.

• Casters are just QQing over the cc changes in range
  Most casters I know, and myself included don't care. The less cc in the game the better IMO. In fact, I think FC should make a pass over all the cc in the game and eliminate the vast majority of it. The issues with CC isn't so much the range, I don't know many casters who used cc unless they were in danger of being attacked in melee anyhow, it's the changes to the classification of cc and the glaringly obvious crippling of every mage when it comes to silence.
  
  FC has decided silence is not a major cc, it never goes on global cool down. The hox silence doesn't even grant an immunity. Because of this, melee can run around with virtual impunity once cc'd (since anything that stops them from hitting is considered major) while their global clock ticks down, but casters can be shut down at will with silence. The parallel would be if mages could stun all melee, whenever and however much they liked without triggering any cool down for 3-6 seconds at time. And if you think it's impossible to lock a caster down you are mistaken. A sin and hox and lock any caster down and kill them without being cast on once.
  
  This change neuters every caster and only strengthens melee by making them immune to most casters.

Right now, there is little incentive to play a mage class, or a tos/pom outside of pve, which seems to be the new focus and direction of aoc.

I would ask everyone with a mage-type class to stop playing, let people try to raid or pve without healers or ranged dps. But I know, regardless, people will play.

I, myself, am retiring my necro until FC re-classifies silence and puts a 30-60second cool down on it. If it isn't a major form of CC then there are no major forms of cc. IN addition, silence shouldn't be available to so many classes, and a silence break isn't something FC should be considering, at this point it should be in the damn game.

For all those who tl;dr I can only hope one day your last 2 brain cells meet, get married and have some kids. You need all the help you can get.

[Makormak]

well im sorry i could not read the whole thing... i was just too busy laughing. But i am sure you put alot of thought into it and have made some very valid points in your own mind..

I love this update so far, and can only hope for more of the same to come. The real test will be in sieges, and as things look now i do think it is on the way to being good.

i play casters as well and things have changed... i was completely wrong when i stated a while back that pots would not hinder me in pvp... dether proved me wrong on that,,, just got to get better myself, im no longer op in pvp.. 1 on 1.. nothing else has really changed (much)

[Unutterable]

There is absolutely no way to reply to this in any seriousness.

Are you actually implying that necros were hard before, and unfairly hard now?

[Toxxus]

Like many players, I have multiple 80s. I've pvp'd lightly on a few of them and spent some hours out in Cimmeria's End watching the duels on Set.

Casters in general and havoc demos in particular were deities. I don't know what they'll be like tonight when I give them a try, but I'm assuming they're still at least demi-gods.

As I reflect on the many beatings I received, I'm fairly sure SilentScreams and some of the others were practicing their melee range CCs in anticipation of this patch.

I don't see all that much changing except maybe the reduced stamina pool will stop them from doing fun things like double-tapping backwards 10-15x in a row.

[obi1cannoli]

holly cow! so....no more (or very few) caters after 1.06?

HELL YEA! sign me up righ now! i wanna play AoC again now.

[StitchWhitewolf]

lol BaW You sure do love your king Cobra dont you hehe.

[Ttah]

Pretty much what I expected.

The main issues, since, I would assume most of you don't know how to read are thus;

Silence IS a major cc
Stamina pot restriction make hulk mad
Melee whine too much about k/d
Melee refuse to acknowledge obvious parity in casting sequencing and combo sequencing
melee range cc is a non-issue - I don't know of a caster who cares
melee now kite casters to pot when hurt
Silence locks casters with no cooldown and no break

most people are stupid

[oggsmash99]

@ the OP: You are wrong, there were not huge grps of melee pvp'ers who wanted to see the current changes happen. Most wanted a way for endurance to work for them, and for sprint to drain stam at a flat rate. They, so far as I know also wanted casters to have less hps geared (since atm they have way too many hps).

However, I would read where so, so many caster players constantly responded with the L2P comment. I also saw alot of them refused to hear they should have less hps (most of that from folks in game, friends/enemies/guildes alot of folks) so this seems to be where FC went. I dont disagree it was not well thought out for what goes on in game in pvp. But I can also say, since I have been seeing denial after denial from caster players about NOT being OP'd in grp combat, alot of them were not in tune with the game. Some, knew they were OP, and felt the change from 1.04 where they went from being strong, and quite powerful if played properly, to a class that didnt require much precision or quick decision making in 1.05 (esp once geared).

As for combos taking more skill to apply in pvp vs a spell, are you really going to attempt to make that arguement? Come on, stick to your valid points (losing stam pots to me was dumb, and the one I would ride to death if I were you) and lose the nonsense.

[oggsmash99]

Originally Posted by Ttah Pretty much what I expected. The main issues, since, I would assume most of you don't know how to read are thus; Silence IS a major cc Stamina pot restriction make hulk mad Melee whine too much about k/d Melee refuse to acknowledge obvious parity in casting sequencing and combo sequencing melee range cc is a non-issue - I don't know of a caster who cares melee now kite casters to pot when hurt Silence locks casters with no cooldown and no break most people are stupid

I would say silence is as major for a caster as root is for a melee. But FC decided root was minor too, so here we are.

Casting sequence and combos are not really comparable (I play a demo too) at all. Ranged, one button, cant do less than full dmg on missing set ups, etc.

[Makormak]

Originally Posted by Ttah Pretty much what I expected. The main issues, since, I would assume most of you don't know how to read are thus; most people are stupid

these are your major problems.....

just goes to show that there are ways around the "M" rating on the game

for there is nothing mature about this ^^^^^^^