How does goad work?

[Maly]

This thread made extremely overcautious, i'll be holding back my dps always.. just in case if someone uses goad.

[Nephturi]

That's why you must not burst when goad is used. You're saying yourself that the aggro was taken by DPS bursting dps when the tanks were using Goad. If there's a problem and the tanks need to use Goad, then why burst?

[-tomhet-]

If there's a problem and the tanks need to use Goad, then why burst?

i only observed this if tanks use it and dont burst agro right after.


sometimes its unavoidable like tank goads and sin bomb bursts for 18-20k hit on boss with no protection 2-3 seconds after goad was used.

like i mentioned this issues of seemingly agro reset dont occur in normal mitigation bosses, mostly its on bosses with no magic mitigation or bosses with agro reset mechanics, its there that i see this freak goad behaviour wich in no way seems intended.

but either way doing burst agro while or immidiatly after applying goad is best way to realy take the most out of using goad, even on normal mitigation bosses just using goad isnt asure to grant you agro more then 2-3 seconds, if previous agro holder keeps hitting he will get back agro after inicial 2-3 seconds, only way to eficiently maintain reliably agro after goading is to burst agro imidiatly after goad.

[Nephturi]

We agree on one thing: Goad is an emergency tool.

like i mentioned this issues of seemingly agro reset dont occur in normal mitigation bosses, mostly its on bosses with no magic mitigation or bosses with agro reset mechanics, its there that i see this freak goad behaviour wich in no way seems intended.

I'd say that on bosses with aggro reset mechanics, it's probably an unlucky reset of aggro.

As for bosses with no protection (hey Arbanus, how are you doing tonight?), what i've seen (as a tank and as a dps) is that mages tend to go too high on the aggro list, leading to critical bursts going over the lead tank position in the aggro list (hello Maark!). That's why I always refrain from doing too much dps when I don't know the tanks well enough.

Whatever happens in both cases, Goad does not reset the aggro table. It just put you the first position (that means the hate of the lead tank + what's necessary to give you the boss' attention). After that, it's up to the tank to do his job.

[Chass-]

Like seriously?! This stuff again?!?!


GOAD DOES NOT RESET AGRO

If you have any idea of how the game mechanics works you should know that GOAD DOES NOT RESET IT.

QQ STOP THIS...

"We agree on one thing: Goad is an emergency tool."

I don't agree, not one bit. Goad is a agro ability, it can be used for a lot more than "emergency". A tank is dead on a boss without agro resets ... He can goad himself back in BEFORE the other tank is almost dead, because its bad for the encounter to keep agro for too long. Oh wait, you see that one tank is on half hp and you are far behind on agro on arbanus due to him being a DT and you a guard, goad now, 30 seconds cooldown on the boss, someone can goad later after you have lost agro again after bursting ur agro abilities but dt taking it due to being a dt.

[Nephturi]

Both your examples are emergencies

[Vahush]

lol exactly, I was gonna post the same you beat me to it.

INSERT RANDOM CAPS AND LOTS OF !?!?!?!... HERE

[Khaletohep]

too many times on my necro passing over 1800 dps witnessed a random goad and grabed agro by doing chill pb detonation+instant icestrike.

too many times i saw in pug raids random nab uses goad and maintank doesnt do burst agro and some dps class who did high burst in the seconds following goad and he pulled agro.

I think this is a case of "Correlation doesn't mean Causation."

There should be three things happening:

- The example Necro does a lot of damage. He'd pull aggro one way or another. That a tank used Goad some seconds aggro is just a random thing, but...

- ... also makes things worse. If Goad hadn't been used, a tank could have taken the Boss back again from the Necro. But now, the Boss has his Goad cooldown. This leads to the Necro being made into a Necro pancake and maybe the whole raid die. Events like that stay in memory. A Necro pulling aggro and being saved by a tank using Goad does not. Thus: In our perception, "Goad -> Necro gets Aggro" gets linked, and our brains believe in a causation where there is none (or, to be more precise, the causation is "Goad + Necro gets Aggro = Necro cannot be saved").

- Switching a bosses aggro can lead to a lower general aggro level among the tanks.

Example 1: The Boss moves for a tiny distance, making the tanks miss a combo. Maybe their aggro margin was just small enough to loose aggro to a damage dealer because of that.

Example 2: Many raids only use Goad as an emergeny tool. If Goading is neccessary when tanking with this philosophy, the tanks are ****ing up. Maybe they're not just ****ing up in switching aggro against each other, but also in general aggro level.

Example 3: A DT and a Guardian tank together. The DT does more aggro. The DT is thus leading on aggro. He has Curse of Gwalhur running. A Guardian uses Goad + Irritate and takes over the boss. The Guardian may be able to hold aggro against the DT although his aggro buildup is generally lower, as the DT has lost the "getting hit" part of his aggro generation. Now, a damage dealer would be more at risk to pull aggro of the Guardian.

[Scaevacas]

amazing how these myths get spread.

Goad definitely does not reset any aggro table, we would have definitely noticed it after 5 years worth of 6 mans and raids.

We also conducted experiments years ago to prove it to people that believed otherwise.

P1 hits mob for 30 seconds.
P2 goads mob off P1.
P3 attacks and can't get aggro off P2 or P1 until he generates more hate than it took P1 to create over his 30 seconds.

That is exactly how it works, when there are no other aggro mechanics involved - this premise stands for over 95% of encounters in Age of Conan.

[Caudilloo]

Example 3: A DT and a Guardian tank together. The DT does more aggro. The DT is thus leading on aggro. He has Curse of Gwalhur running. A Guardian uses Goad + Irritate and takes over the boss. The Guardian may be able to hold aggro against the DT although his aggro buildup is generally lower, as the DT has lost the "getting hit" part of his aggro generation. Now, a damage dealer would be more at risk to pull aggro of the Guardian.

I thought of this myself too and think this is the most likely reason why we think DPS has a higher chance of pulling aggro after a goad.

All soldiers generate higher aggro when they are being hit:
- DT's generate extra aggro trough selfheal, cunning and curse of gwalhur if feated.
- Guards generate more trough cunning and can use stall the advance in the 'low point' of their rotation. They also build vengeance stacks but I don't know my guard enough to know if this also happens when another tank gets hit.
- Conqs are clearest: they generate much more aggro when being hit trough retributive damage from retaliation, Guard of dancing steel, and of course cunning.

Now imagine a brute conq solotanking something generating a stable 2000 hate of which 300 comes from retributive damage/cunning deflection. In order for a DPS to pull he needs to generate 2200 dps. (2000+10%)

Now a DT goads and uses proper burst aggro to keep it for a while. He generates a stable hate of 1800. The conq however can not take the aggro back because he misses the aggro from his retributive damage and his hate without being hit is only at 1700.

In this scenario the net aggro after a goad ended up at a stable lower level then it was before. DPS now only need to do 1980 (1800+10%) in order to pull aggro.
If DPS were pushing around 2K earlier when the conq was tanking they were safe by a big margin. Now that the DT took over however they are in great danger of pulling which will be even worse then it was usual because there is no goad available for soldiers to take back the aggro and it is likely to cause a wipe.

People will start shouting for goads and aggro on teamspeak, others will shout it has just been used, DPS can die and the connection is easily made in ones mind that one causes the other.