Sillyness of Decap+ATG

[Anarok]

Mangus l2p ur barb too please. tell us ur fury main's name so we can find out who you are too. would help see which noob says that barb is not way too op and doesnt need a nerf. they are on constant speed buff all time and they recover hp from low to full in seconds. this is retarted. combine decap and atg and heres godmode! even gms cant kill them now lolimao

[MagnusLL]

Either way. All those abilities are now on cooldown, the longest being 2 minutes. That kind of burst once every 2 minutes on a pve geared necro doesn't sound too OP too me.

It would be nice if all people in this topic could stop cherrypicking (low or high hits) to back their claims. Just parse a few minis, play normal (so don't only hit clothies with it or go in hide to wait for cooldowns) and get average hits etc.
I get the points you guys are trying to make (it's too strong!! vs. it's not strong at all!!) but the way you are doing it only makes it weaker.

This is exactly what I did in the other thread, and with a berserker spec, the average Decap hit is 2k. AtG is similar, although the parses I linked didn't have it in them.

Anyway, he actually has a point, but it's not the one he's trying to make.

Taken by itself, as I said, Decap + AtG is not all this megahigh burst. In a full berserker spec you'll hit on average for 4k, which might sound high but it's not once you realize we're talking about a melee combo used by a light armor rogue, on a 30 seconds CD, costing a gold perk. You're not killing anyone with 4k damage and after triggering it you are then forced to follow up with less than optimal Butchers (no Upheaval available due to slotting AtG) for the next 29 seconds.
Sure you can use silly buffing tricks to achieve a once every 90 / 120 seconds megashot but then for how much are you hitting in the following minute and a half?

The problem lies in the interaction of Haste with the other two abilities. Haste gives a +82% weapon damage buff (which is actually higher due to the sinergy with Reave) which is:

A) instantaneous
B) unconditional
C) on a short enough CD (60 seconds) which, realistically, will make it available more than half the time (since it's hard to imagine someone managing to use Decap/Atg exactly once every 30 seconds with perfect efficiency. If nothing else, sometimes you'll simply be out of combat when they come off CD so you'll "regain" a shorter CD on the Haste burst).

A straight out nerf of Haste is out of the question as it would gimp the sustained dps for PvE barbs.

The quickest solution here would be to link Haste to Reaver stance which would make it all but useless for PvP purposes. The problem with this (and the reason why I'm hesitant to propose it on testlive) is that while it would suitably nerf the Haste + Decap + AtG cheese combo it would also likely result in a straight out death of all the hybrid barb pvp specs, including all those NOT using Decap/AtG. I personally don't like reaver hybrid but many barbs use it and they don't deserve to see their play style killed due to a single cheese build. On the other hand, nerfing Decap to prepatch levels means to revert berserker burst back to non existent (many players, myself included, didn't even bother speccing Decap at all before the patch).

Ideal solution would be to have Decap / AtG unaffected by the Haste dps buff but I have no clue if this is feasible from a coding point of view. I suspect the Haste buff just goes in the pool of all available +weapon damage buffs so they'd need to somehow keep it distinct from all the others to implement such a change.

[viroku]

Either way. All those abilities are now on cooldown, the longest being 2 minutes. That kind of burst once every 2 minutes on a pve geared necro doesn't sound too OP too me.

It would be nice if all people in this topic could stop cherrypicking (low or high hits) to back their claims. Just parse a few minis, play normal (so don't only hit clothies with it or go in hide to wait for cooldowns) and get average hits etc.
I get the points you guys are trying to make (it's too strong!! vs. it's not strong at all!!) but the way you are doing it only makes it weaker.

Actually highest cd is 3 min (tmtc), but that is not really the point. staggering blow is up whenever you want, haste is up every minute and that is all you really need. that super high dmg that you can do every 2 min is just cherry on top. Eyes is 1:30 cd so its up pretty often.
Parsing minis dont mean much, and honestly i dont really waste decap/atg on soldiers in def stance. CC, staggering and butcher is used on soldiers, they are not really your targets to kill. Clothies, healers, rangers are targets that you can really do great dmg with decap/atg.
Like i said with t1 geared barb vs these targets 4k-6k (6-8k is also often with some nice crits) is dmg you regulary do with decap and ATG vs these targets without horde, thirst and tmtc which are bit rare to use and need bit preparing. I think for class that has nice survivability, good speed and cc it is bit to much to have burst like this with 1 click combo that is impossible to miss.

[Derled]

This is exactly what I did in the other thread, and with a berserker spec, the average Decap hit is 2k. AtG is similar, although the parses I linked didn't have it in them.

Anyway, he actually has a point, but it's not the one he's trying to make.

Taken by itself, as I said, Decap + AtG is not all this megahigh burst. In a full berserker spec you'll hit on average for 4k, which might sound high but it's not once you realize we're talking about a melee combo used by a light armor rogue, on a 30 seconds CD, costing a gold perk. You're not killing anyone with 4k damage and after triggering it you are then forced to follow up with less than optimal Butchers (no Upheaval available due to slotting AtG) for the next 29 seconds.
Sure you can use silly buffing tricks to achieve a once every 90 / 120 seconds megashot but then for how much are you hitting in the following minute and a half?

The problem lies in the interaction of Haste with the other two abilities. Haste gives a +82% weapon damage buff (which is actually higher due to the sinergy with Reave) which is:

A) instantaneous
B) unconditional
C) on a short enough CD (60 seconds) which, realistically, will make it available more than half the time (since it's hard to imagine someone managing to use Decap/Atg exactly once every 30 seconds with perfect efficiency. If nothing else, sometimes you'll simply be out of combat when they come off CD so you'll "regain" a shorter CD on the Haste burst).

A straight out nerf of Haste is out of the question as it would gimp the sustained dps for PvE barbs.

The quickest solution here would be to link Haste to Reaver stance which would make it all but useless for PvP purposes. The problem with this (and the reason why I'm hesitant to propose it on testlive) is that while it would suitably nerf the Haste + Decap + AtG cheese combo it would also likely result in a straight out death of all the hybrid barb pvp specs, including all those NOT using Decap/AtG. I personally don't like reaver hybrid but many barbs use it and they don't deserve to see their play style killed due to a single cheese build. On the other hand, nerfing Decap to prepatch levels means to revert berserker burst back to non existent (many players, myself included, didn't even bother speccing Decap at all before the patch).

Ideal solution would be to have Decap / AtG unaffected by the Haste dps buff but I have no clue if this is feasible from a coding point of view. I suspect the Haste buff just goes in the pool of all available +weapon damage buffs so they'd need to somehow keep it distinct from all the others to implement such a change.

the problem i find is that with new Devastation, the atg and decap will crit like 3/4 times,
U know, barb has always been the class wich requires landing combos and combo steps, wich made it balanced and fun to play, but after few feats were changed, it completly destroyed the reason why anyone played barb in first place, now its just another slam head on keyboard and wait for cd.. its sad

[viroku]

the problem i find is that with new Devastation, the atg and decap will crit like 3/4 times,

At least 1 thing will usually crit.
I rarely come to someone and 1 shot them like you did in that video but even when relied only on staggering (and haste every minute) even pvp 10 poms are dead or with 10% health after knock. And Im just average player not pro like you or some other barbs.

@MagnusLL once again I must tell you how much i enjoyed those parses from two minis you did. over 100 knocks or so and only 5-6 fb. well done

[CueQue]

I need to know what abillities are the most nessecary for this to try it out myself (t1 pvp geared) to see wich side i should argue for.

[MagnusLL]

the problem i find is that with new Devastation, the atg and decap will crit like 3/4 times,
U know, barb has always been the class wich requires landing combos and combo steps, wich made it balanced and fun to play, but after few feats were changed, it completly destroyed the reason why anyone played barb in first place, now its just another slam head on keyboard and wait for cd.. its sad

Decap now has either a hidden crit buff or a flat fixed chance of critting (50% fully specced). If it's the latter, it doesn't interact in any way with Devastation.
In any case, the unbuffed crits in full berserker are nowhere near one shotting anyone.

But you know what, I actually just found out a solution which should be possible to implement for Funcom coders.

Give a shared 10 seconds internal CD to Haste, Decap and AtG (similar to what happens with e.g. conq bubbles). This means:

A) you can't use Decap and AtG at the same time. You need to wait 10 seconds between the two
B) You can't use Haste with either of them. Since Haste lasts 10 seconds, by the time the CD has expired you've lost the Haste buff

[Grominou]

Pretty scary this vid xD

[Sarhal]

The point he is making is valid. He just a bit trying to show highest degree of idiotism that u can get there.

For example on this video with necro he didnt even need ATG at all to finish it, it was just Decap and some splash from group. Yeah the spec ia a bit aimed on oneshot hybrid, but still this damage output skillwise is superbad and close to what we had with comboskipping DWW on sin. Its nothing bad about burst abilties as long as they are skillbased. Current version of ATG+Decap promotes wrong kind of PvP and simplification.

[viroku]

I need to know what abillities are the most nessecary for this to try it out myself (t1 pvp geared) to see wich side i should argue for.

Staggering, haste and eyes are most important for regular mini (knock for debuf is also nice). horde, thirst and tmtc are for certain situations and have bit longer cd.