[Zrun]

I am level 50 and slowly leveling, after doing numerous rounds of tanking, instances and groups, I think I have figured out some of the important facets of threat in this game.

>>Important Notes<<

Initial Aggro
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Initial Aggro is extremely important - I have been running a lot with a ranger friend, and though his damage is very high, even a white shot used as an initial pull generates aggro in excess of up to 3 white hits of mine, in defensive stance, with 500+ in my taunt skill, the same rule applies to me pulling initial aggro, he won't pull it off even with a salvo unless he crits and the damage far exceeds my white hits.

The assumption here is that the initial aggro encounter adds a baseline figure to the person obtaining aggro.

To pull the mob off of initial, I had to charge a taunt based combo, and complete it as the mob was running past me, normally 1 taunt combo and 1 white swing would return aggro to me. If the ranger continued doing damage, then it was practically impossible for me to peel the mob off him, as the dps aggro + initial aggro was too high for me to catch.

Maintaining Aggro
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Once initial aggro was pulled by me, after 2-3 threat combos (the ones that say a goading blow) the mobs were basically glued to me, and I could continue to white swing if I so chose, from that point it was very rare to lose aggro.

Multiple Mobs
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My specs (I have respecced often) haven't all been based around AOE damage or threat, but I find that the DT does hold AOE aggro better. HOTS being the only issue that peels adds off of the DT (or a dumb DPS'r). Tab white attacking can work, but I find that once the healer has pulled aggro, they need to immediatly stand next to you so that you can tag both mobs with your combo's.

Tanking Chaos
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With this being early in the game still, and people not sure how to play, I often see people beginning combo's way before threat is established, and then running around like morons with the tank having to give chase, it is imperative that we as the tanks explain that a lot of our threat is based off combo's, to hold dps, and if aggro is obtained, to run circles around the tank if the need to run must be there, this will allow the tank with autotargetting on to easily land combo's on the mob.

Goad and Goad Mob
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Goad is odd, but I feel it does work. Unlike WoW where taunt immediatly put you to the top of the aggro table, I feel like Goad resets the table, and places the DT at 1 level of threat (bare minimum). The problem is, goad is not instant, and takes a second for it to take effect, and seems to be a melee ranged effect only. If, in the time frame that goad is attempted, and should complete, another person commits an action, the mob will go after them as if they had pulled initial aggro. If everyone stops, and goad is performed, it seems to function normally, and the fight should proceed like an initial pull.

Goad Mob (AOE) - Works much like goad, but seems to have an excellent range. Once again, it seems to be an aggro wipe for everyone, and this ability can actually be far worse to use on a healer than just letting mobs run around, as 1 bad HOT right after goad mob can focus everything on the healer, as opposed to the various DPS they were on. It does appear to be far more effective than goad.

Hateful Strikes
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I haven't done enough testing with this ability, but it would appear to be more for an initial boss pull that would result in fast damage, so that the healers can start healing and dps can begin faster. It doesn't seem to help too much with peeling people off other targets.



These are only my initial observations and in no way are they fact. I will stand by my theory that initial aggro is FAR more important in this game than WoW per say, and really dictates that the tank himself handle the pulls.

[Krayl]

Good post was just going to post about DT threat, main observation being as you stated, that initial aggro is key, and getting it back from someone, even someone who's body pulled, can be a chore.

Been really confused about tanking and aggro in AoC. So far the times I've tanked I've felt like I suck; in reality it sounds like people aren't giving me enough time. In one instance they even had a ranger pulling, and then wondering why the ranger couldn't lose aggro.

I've got a warrior and pally tank in wow and it's easy, in AoC it definitely seems more difficult. Seems like most of the time my taunt combos aren't really doing a damn thing.

[Tartaglia]

Thanks for the useful info. Have you done any threat studies that compare healing agro to white damage / combo threat damage? Basically, how much hate does leeching agro generate compared to per point of white damage? Thanks.

[Shaolinpunk]

I've heard conflicting information on combos. Some say the aggro generating ones such as enraging strike and Brutalenraging strike are what you shoudl be using to establish aggro. While others are saying that the aggro generated by them is less than that you'd generate by opening up with your hard hitting combos like Mystic Bane/ ingnite ether. What have you discovered so far as to which works better and what have others?

[Neyar]

Good observations here.

I haven't done any controlled testing on threat/hate/agro generation yet, but based on what I've seen grouping so far, initial agro seems very key as a whole. It's gotten much better for me post 50 being able to pull with a crossbow for initial damage instead of just prox pulling. Interesting thoughts on Goad and Goad Mob, it seems a little more in line with how I'm seeing it work.

Here are a few things that I've noticed with agro generation in general:

From group testing, it looks like debuff agro is fairly good at holding mobs (at least better than the specifically threat abilities, which apparently don't scale well either) Blood for Aid can hold mobs considerably better for me than spamming Enraging strikes (or Brutal, etc.) UB would probably also be good for this; however given that my current rank of it requires 4 attacks it has an effective 5sec+ casting time.

So in a group, I tend to pull with the crossbow for initial damage and get the mobs positioned near the group. I usually start out with Enraging strike II and Brutal Enraging Strike I for starters and then launch into my other abilities. I open with these for the same reason I mentioned above: casting time. I can get these single-attack combos off usually before any of the dps has a chance to launch into the pile with their high damage combos and I can get a jump start on agro (even if these abilities don't scale quite right).

I'm trying not to respec until they fix some of the bugs associated with it, but I don't have the incinerate feat to see how it works for agro. (I'm specing more for PvE MT role than PvP anyhow)

[weedragonaut]

Seems worthy of being added to the DT compilation post, as this is really the first inkling of a tanking discussion I've seen with regards to our class.

Thanks for taking the time to post this.

[feyrband]

i agree with your post minus the running in circles thing, i would let them die or strangle them myself if they didnt stand still.

that lack of patience may be from 9 years of tanking and dealing with occasional noobs thinking its a smart idea to run.

[shibb]

Good post, the initial aggro thing is definitely nice to know. No more ranger pulling!

Neyar, I've been thinking of switching to those lower rank Enraging strikes because of the shorter execution time, but wondering if the threat bonus is less or not...

Also, do you guys find you have serious issues running out of stam? Seems I'm needing to chug stam pots on any extended pull/boss mob, because Rite of Blood really doesn't return enough. Combine that with the active block and Dstance stam drain and it gets annoying.

[Wasilah]

What I've noticed for agro.
With this last patch goad/goad mob seem to be working a lot better. I suppose it was working how you said before but now it seems that I will actually get agro after hitting one of them. Haven't tryed hateful strikes post-patch just cause before it seemed a waist of time to even hit the button for it. might have to give it a try.

I've found you have to balance the tanking feats with the DPS feats. This game seems to be more dmg done = more agro as opposed to taunt skill + abilities = agro. I suppose we can call it a aggressive defense?! ;p

[DimDragon]

I totally agree with OP on initial agro, however one more thing also involved I believe is the level of character. I find it very hard to get agro from a player 2-3 levels higher then me. When I'm a few levels up then simple straight hit can easy transfer agro to me.