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Thread: Raiding is (usually) bad, mkay?

  1. #11

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    The problem is not my or your ability to deal with the issue, the problem is the existence of it. Therefore any "solutions to carrying" is ultimately bogus (because if it can happen, it will happen). It should not exist and wouldn't exist if "raiding" in AoC was designed better overall.

    T1 and T2 is how everyone starts and they drill into a new player the idea of being an irresponsible, unresponsive and unimportant slot filler who gets carried is the norm. Then suddenly Miasma/Blood Draw means he/she is dragging everyone down because he/she's useless dead weight. At that point he/she either sucks it up and improves or figures being insulted by random internet *******s over some stupid game isn't worth it.

    There's a massively gigantic disconnect between first two tiers and the higher tiers. This corresponds to the shift in AoC's general direction that happened after 1.5, it started to become more of a PvEr's game and this is very clearly seen in raids. Remember this? Raids left from old balanced (or even PvP centric) game are casual, social event type of things including the original design of T3, while newer tiers made after game shifted direction are hardcore PvE content starting with actual T3. And this jarring shift very badly screws over casuals, followed by more trouble for everyone.

    So what's the solution? I see two ways out of it. You either have 2 difficulties starting from T3: Normal modes would be for those casual players who want to drink beer and chat with buddies on ventrilo, with everything nerfed to T2 level. Unchained modes (we all know it'd be named unchained) would be made even harder, restoring T3's difficulty back to its launch state and going on from there.
    Or you revamp T2 so it's more in line with PvE focus of the game, something that contains very much easier but recognizable versions of Miasma/Blood Draw, Thoth puzzle, Archfiend/Zodiac positioning, HK/Sheng/Emperor style of kiting etc to make certain nobody can get away with slacking and everyone actually learns to be a PvEr. This could completely shut off casual players from raiding, which seems a big downside, but those players already don't bother with high tiers anyway.

    Or FC could just go on ignoring it. That seems like the most likely outcome.

  2. #12

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    You´ve got some valid points there, but you also forget about one thing.. the flow of time in this game.
    When T1 was released, it was the first tier of raid instances, the first place, where people went with 24man raid and at level 75-80 with blue gear and no raiding experience at all. It introduced the very basic mechanics of the fights, but people still had to learn them and oh yes, there was lot of wiping as well. T2 was one step further with bringing a little more responsibility for individuals and the raid as whole, while (especially the original) T3 was bringing this responsibility concept to its final stage, where 1 individual could wipe the whole raid in a second. This (maybe a bit too much) big step between T2 and T3 has been honed with the T3 revamp.. ehm.. nerf, so the progression curve should be kinda ok now.

    Anyway, you should always remember, that all the tactics were evolving through the time (no DT pet turning in 2008 iirc), same as gear got better (T1-4) and somewhere in 2010 AAs appeared (10+% power boost for char).. the fact, that you can now "brute force" T1-2 raids with 2 groups or less doesn´t mean it´s been always like that or that all those very new and fresh players can do it now as well. You can´t really revamp T1-2 raids because hey, you´re the x-years old veteran now and you´re bored there. I would be bored too, being there more than 5 years ago for the first time and more than billion times since then... that´s why I don´t usually go there, unless I need the destiny quest stuff having done, or I´m helping out with an Ibis craft for a guildmate.

    Yes, there could be more sophisticated tactics for some T3+ encounters, but with T3 being actually simplified to be more accessible for the wider player base after all the years, you can forget about your grand plan for T3 already. T3,5 and T4 got some more relaxed/slack-ish encounters in there, sure, but most of the content is still quite demanding (in terms of keeping them busy with more stuff than smashing 123) for the majority of the raid force (I would maybe add Zodiac to your "ok list" too, Basilisk v1 had some quite interesting mechanics as well, but was buggy as hell, so they dumbed it down to this kinda boring freeloot version we got now).

    Also in FCs case there´s one more huge factor when it comes to revamping 4-5yo raid content just for the sake of it.. ain´t nobody got moneys for that.
    Last edited by Argantes; 8th November 2013 at 08:58.
    aka Morte.. Morce.. Morte.. Morce again.. bah, whatever..

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by cins View Post
    At that point he/she either sucks it up and improves or figures being insulted by random internet *******s over some stupid game isn't worth it.
    Unfortunately many choose to do the latter, which says more about them as a person than anything else (i.e. that they cannot be bothered with getting better at many other aspects of their life as well) ... and it's not something a game can address without basically just excluding them or making the game trivial enough for them (as you suggested) ... but then no-one who actually likes a challenge will give a rats arse about the game anymore.

    It's also apparent that casuals far, far outweigh the hard core, and thus most companies see little value in making *and maintaining the difficulty of* extremely hard raid content. Most of them will make it easier after the next tier is released, which only serves to trivialize the efforts of anyone *currently working through* that content, and also creates a huge difficulty differential (between the new tier and the now nerfed previous tier).

    I think they should settle on a difficulty for a tier and leave it at that. If people cannot do the content, tough. Get better at your class. Develop some spatial awareness. Use a better UI where you can see cast bars and target's target and so on. But this seems too much to expect from most people.
    Last edited by Petridish; 8th November 2013 at 09:21.
    Drunkskunk (Sin) - Petridish (ToS) - Gwarnath (BS) - Tomatohawk (DT)

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petridish View Post
    Unfortunately many choose to do the latter, which says more about them as a person than anything else (i.e. that they cannot be bothered with getting better at many other aspects of their life as well).
    Nonsense. Getting better at anything has opportunity costs, as you could use the time for something else. Granted, the opportunity cost in improving your gameplay in AoC isn't quite as high as the cost in getting a degree in quantum physics. But this game is a relatively mature audience, which means that people don't have as much time as your average 15 year old WoW kid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Petridish View Post
    Most of them will make it easier after the next tier is released, which only serves to trivialize the efforts of anyone *currently working through* that content, and also creates a huge difficulty differential (between the new tier and the now nerfed previous tier).
    It's a cheap way to give "new" content to people who were previously locked out. Nothing wrong with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by cins View Post
    The problem is not my or your ability to deal with the issue, the problem is the existence of it. Therefore any "solutions to carrying" is ultimately bogus (because if it can happen, it will happen). It should not exist and wouldn't exist if "raiding" in AoC was designed better overall.
    While I share your preference for harder encounters, I wasn't quite sure about your point initially. Now I see it's just the good old rant about casuals refusing to learn the game. That is a non-issue. If you mind people being lazy, join a guild that doesn't tolerate slacking (or only tolerates it to an extent where they can still easily do hardcore content). Or, if you don't want to feel like in the Foreign Legion, join a casual guild - but then you'll have to put up with the fact that some people will use every opportunity to slack. You have a choice, but you can't have the cake and eat it.
    Rathothis|Tempest of Set || Tigrathes|Dark Templar || Isitnofret|Herald of Xotli
    BS|Sin|Demo|Barb|Conq
    Sudatorius|Noob barb on Rage

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by cins View Post
    Sure there are the exceptions like Chatha, Thoth Amon, General Sheng, Emperor, Archfiend of Gore or Bat of Nergal but they're too few
    And those are the fights where majority of raids consisting of casual Joes fails... The question is for what type of players Funcom should create content.
    Emirri - Dark Templar
    Naerri - Herald of Xotli, Arrienne, Argene, Barbeena, Conqubinne, Shaniz, Shinzei, Laylani and Dorela

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathothis View Post
    Now I see it's just the good old rant about casuals refusing to learn the game.
    Reading comprehension is at an all time high I see.
    Quote Originally Posted by Naerri View Post
    The question is for what type of players Funcom should create content.
    All of them, which can happen in the plane of platonic gaming ideal.
    In the real world, FC should just pick one type of raid player and make sure they get a consistent experience of the kind they want. Which they almost seem to be doing what with the hardcoreness focus on higher tiers, except that it's both built from a casual start and contains a large amount of boring slot filling and number bloat in their design. What should happen is that either starter raiding experience becomes conductive to hardcore raiding in addition to removal of boring bits, or all raiding becomes suitable to casual audiences and hardcore PvErs get their jollies elsewhere, most likely dungeons. Middle ground causes trouble.

  7. #17

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    Raids don't have to be nerfed to fit casual players. Even casual players can get full t2 and khitai if they pull their own weight without a lot of stress.

    If a player wants to go into t3 and t4, then they should know how to play their character and not expect to get in a raid wearing greens and lvl 80 blue gear. T1 and t2 raids are there for people to learn how to raid with 23 other players. They can go into t3/t4 not knowing the fight, but they need to be able to take directions and not repeatedly mess up the raid for the rest of the group. The raid leaders should take action if the same person is wiping the raid due to not paying attention or not listening.

    Its called 'high end' for a reason. If they want the better gear then they should know how to play and be willing to work a bit. Some of the t3 pugs are pretty scary right now...and I don't even want to think about t4 pugs with shieng.

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by cins View Post
    I hate raiding ...

    Preemptive protip for the illiterate: I'm demanding every raid encounter be more like either General Sheng or Vistrix and less like Hollow Knight.

    Final note: **** Hollow Knight. HK is an embarrasment.
    I was on-board with yah till I got here and realized your just being a pretentious D-Bag

    Trying using the search feature on the forums and you'll see this has been discussed countless times. Thank You Captain Obvious; perhaps ill gift you a pair of boots and a cape ...

    They have plenty of unchained dungeons,6-Mans, Khitai vendors for you to get geared up ~ after all ; isn't that all we're after ?

    Sure, trying to get into a PuG raid is a pain and often leads to either coming up short or being in a fight where you don't need everyone ~ but the last few guilds I've been associated with didn't have A shortage of people and/or no-one complained about having anything to do.
    "Always review over the Social Guidelines before posting on the forums"

    "Please put "Illinois ftw" in your reply to ensure you read all of this ..." -VORBIZ-

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by cins View Post
    Reading comprehension is at an all time high I see.
    Funny, are we?

    You talk about "solutions to carrying" as if the latter was a problem. It's nothing but the old rant about casuals not wanting to improve, with the slight variation that you don't dress it up as a player / community problem, but as a design problem for Funcom.

    Fortunately, you then go on to state why it is not a design problem after all:

    Quote Originally Posted by cins View Post
    In the real world, FC should just pick one type of raid player and make sure they get a consistent experience of the kind they want. Which they almost seem to be doing what with the hardcoreness focus on higher tiers, except that it's both built from a casual start and contains a large amount of boring slot filling and number bloat in their design. What should happen is that either starter raiding experience becomes conductive to hardcore raiding in addition to removal of boring bits, or all raiding becomes suitable to casual audiences and hardcore PvErs get their jollies elsewhere, most likely dungeons. Middle ground causes trouble.
    The skill gap between T1/T2 and the later raiding tiers used to be a problem when we had a significant casual population which expected new raiding content. That population is no longer here. Most casuals in the game have been here for a while and know their limitations. And if we all can agree that we won't see the magical influx of 100,000 casual players that would help AoC back on its feet, then the problem you describe is not terribly relevant in practice.

    Now I agree with you that Funcom should remove boring bits even in later raid tiers. But I'd strongly disagree that those boring bits are there to cater to a casual audience. They are simply there because of bad design.
    Rathothis|Tempest of Set || Tigrathes|Dark Templar || Isitnofret|Herald of Xotli
    BS|Sin|Demo|Barb|Conq
    Sudatorius|Noob barb on Rage

  10. #20

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    I ****ing hate quote by quote threads on the internet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rathothis View Post
    ...boring bits are ... simply there because of bad design.
    I have no idea how you managed to project random casual hate crap on me while agreeing with the whole point here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anubium View Post
    If a player wants to go into t3 and t4, then they should know how to play their character and not expect to get in a raid wearing greens and lvl 80 blue gear.
    The casual debate is seperate from bad design of raid encounters. Also why? What's so special about T3 is that it must be the line that seperates casual player from raider? Why is the casual player destined to be kicked out at a certain point along the way? How's stringing them along until it's time to chuck them into the bin a good thing? Just tell them upfront that raiding isn't for them if you're not gonna make raids for them. There should be seperate content (or at least seperate difficulty levels) that both types can enjoy without interference from the other, which causes all casual-hardcore debates.
    At this point someone could claim that X parts of content is for casuals and Y parts are for hardcores but if there's actually such an official designation, why does older content always get nerfed as newer stuff come out? To give "more content" to casuals that was previously locked to them? ********, FC could make stuff with hard and easy settings from beginning if they want to give more content to casuals, that way casual player wouldn't have had to wait for however long it took for the nerfbat to arrive. Casual players are treated like the stepchildren who only ever get the old toys that other children are bored of. The fault here probably lies more with the hardcores than FC, seeing how much we bitch and moan whenever the idea of casuals treated like our equals appears anywhere, including the speed of new content production. Still, it's FC's fault for indulging this behavior: If you're getting new toys, you'd better get new toys for all of your kids or let them all know clearly which kid is the favorite.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mustaine View Post
    They have plenty of unchained dungeons,6-Mans, Khitai vendors for you to get geared up ~ after all ; isn't that all we're after ?
    Wut? No, gear is stupid. The only reason gear exists is that we can defeat bigger and badder things. If there's no bigger and badder challenge you're unable to defeat with whatever you currently have, you don't need no stinking gear. Anyone who thinks vidyagames are for seeing infinitely increasing numbers is a reincarnated hamster.

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