Petition - Scrap Guild Cities.

[Aell]

You can actually visit the cities of other guilds as long as the instance is populated. Those instances aren't locked to only the guild members.

But who does? Exactly?

Statistically? Nobody.

[Aell]

So the suggestion is spend a whole lot of developer time removing content. No thanks.

No, the suggestion is a dirty and unsubtle mask for releasing content to every player instead of locking it away to the few obsessives who are prepared to spend three years grinding.

Grindwalls are barriers to entry. Barriers to entry are idiotic things in a game because they discourage customers.

When you want to buy a coffee, do Starbucks insist that you sweep the streets for a week in order to do so?

This is the equivalent of Funcom saying "You cannot buy a dog as a pet until you have spent at least two months of your life tapping rocks". You didn't want to tap rocks. You just wanted a dog, and they charge you in-game gold for the dog, too.

It's much like any other grindwall. You'd like to PvP on an equal basis? Great. Then either you spend two years getting your face mashed into the dirt in minis or six months tapping rocks in Bori.

Neither of these are the "fun" thing you wanted to do. The thing you became a premium member for. No. The money you spent? That's gone, sucker! Now you're not allowed to have your fun until you spend months doing something you hate, idiot gamer!

When faced with that, most gamers (ie, people prepared to pay money to have actual fun) cut their losses and go play Assassin's Creed instead because Ubisoft know that if you want people to pay you, you let them have the fun they're paying for.

Funcom - or at least Craig Morrison - seem to regard players as morons or masochists who like to suffer. Most players aren't. That's why most players are gone and until the legacy of Silirrion (ie, the unholy, brainmelting, soul-destroying grind) is gone, they will never be back.

Which is a shame and unnecessary, since the population figures alone would show that Gaute's easy-in game was pretty popular.

[cins]

every day i'm grinding

I don't know who you've played with, but the average MMORPG player demands to have grinding. Those jillions of box buyers from 2008? They cried and cried and finally left because there was "no endgame". Which is the Grind's glass wearing secret identity.

[Aell]

I don't know who you've played with, but the average MMORPG player demands to have grinding. Those jillions of box buyers from 2008? They cried and cried and finally left because there was "no endgame". Which is the Grind's glass wearing secret identity.

Some of them wanted an endgame. Most of them wanted it to stop crashing and they'd have quite liked gems to not be absolutely batshít insane, too.

Let's look outside the DIKU-MUD box for a moment (look it up) at the only successfully growing year-on-year MMO. EvE Online has no endgame beyond what you make of it.

Me, I say the endgame in EvE is rulership, conquest. That's the kind of thing you can do when rewards are based on financial systems and not on stupid combat powerups and grind.

What is endgame? Politics. Conquest. War. Dealing with famines, rebellions, incursions from other rulers, negotiations, the manipulation and ruling of vassals. Endgame is where Conan usurps Aquilonia.

It's not grind.

Even in successful games where there is grind, it's related grind. You want to be the best crafter? Then grind crafting. Not "get a crit chance increase by building a PvE city by grinding a billion rocks for three years".

The really big problem with AoC is that grind has been implemented as a good thing in and of itself with no reference to the goal of that grind.

[GeneralFear]

I think AoC has one of the best guild set-ups of any MMO I've played. There's actually a game reason to be in a guild and to work with other guild members to achieve specific aims... whether it's building the guild city, working on guild renown, progressing through raid dungeons, seige (if it worked) and so on. It's one of the few games where being in a guild is more than just a social grouping of people... it's in every member's interest to co-operate and work together to advance their guild. This is the very essence of MMO. I tried and left other MMO games because there really was no reason to have a guild at all, and without it, no real connection to the game or other players.

While I think AoC has a great guild foundation, it could go further.... giving different races city structures that are appropriate to their race, providing some player housing, adding dungeons in the guild instance that the guild members get together to solve, etc. etc.

So I love the idea of having opposing races, especially in the context of PvP, but I if only it could be done within and by enhancing the existing guild structure.

[Aell]

And I think guild cities are not good [We dont use that other word! Edited by Drest] because they put an enormous wall of grind between players and content that might make them enjoy the game enough to, y'know, play it.

Like all those people who don't anymore.

[Mellaus]

I like guild cities, they add an actual incentive to be in a guild or create one.

Although for PvE, i don't see much point in having those huge walls. I mean, guild cities can be very well made and beautifull, it shouldn't be hidden, but displayed to whoever want to have a look.

[Aell]

I like guild cities, they add an actual incentive to be in a guild or create one.

You don't need a reason to join a guild beyond "playing the game with your friends".

All the rest simply locks out small guilds and lone players.

[Naerri]

You don't need a reason to join a guild beyond "playing the game with your friends".

All the rest simply locks out small guilds and lone players.

Small guilds (lets say 20 active players) are perfectly capable of creating full T3 city in a reasonable amount of time. Lone players....well what can I say - you are playing massively multi player online game...

But who does? Exactly?

Statistically? Nobody.

Saw that happen many times actually.

[Aell]

Small guilds (lets say 20 active players) are perfectly capable of creating full T3 city in a reasonable amount of time. Lone players....well what can I say - you are playing massively multi player online game...

You are playing a game which you might well pay money for. In order to get to content in that game (let's assume you subscribe so you've even paid for it), you are locked out unless you agree to do something which nobody enjoys (grinding a t3 city? seriously? If you enjoy that, get professional help) and which is 100% unrelated to the activities it unlocks.

I get that you've subscribed for ever and you also think 20 active players is a small guild - reality check, dude. Look at the server populations. 20 active is big. Very big - but the point here is that you wouldn't unsub if I took away your city tomorrow provided you still got all the benefits of it.

But there are people to whom the continuing and neverending grind is a very strong incentive to unsub.

You can tell that by the number of people who aren't playing this game.