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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Likkal View Post
    2)i dont beleive in the necro 'kill-stealing'. 8000 damage over time is the same as 8000 in 5 seconds. If a player has to heal through it then you have forced them to use something they may not have had to do otherwise. A player may take 20,000 damage and not die from dots, if another player comes along and kills them with 12,000 damage then the kill should be given to the necro. A kill does not have to count from the time the players health is at full to zero within the last x seconds. Many will disagree with this im sure .
    hi there.

    i would say as much as 20% of sieging+minigame kills come from ftw.

    because kill count seems to be amount of damage dealt gets credit of kill.

    so for most part reaplying ftw+motd will grant you kill count on any soldier wich been exposed to your dots over time even if he healed up full health several times prior to actual kill blow, same for any bs-pom wich you dotted several times and did not kill.

    so those annoying soldiers wich run around immortal when they get zerged and killed a necro wich been dotting gets credit of kill even if he wasnt involved in the zerg kill wich killed the soldier.

    i have no idea how to prove this but have witnessed countless times something like this situation:
    enemy flag carrier dies miles away and i get kill strait away.

    my personal experience has proven me beyond doubt ftw is kill stealing.
    i seriously lack proper means to prove this given my limited means as a player with no access to server numbers, i mean i could show you parses of damage dealt, but wouldt realy help prove it unless i could confirm that i did not kill players miles away from me despite parser showing me having dealt the most damage to them.

    but any experienced pvper will back me up in this claim, this is specialy true in sieges my record is 106kills i have no idea how many came from ftw and how many from direct nuking but have seen other necros reach 200kills in sieges and all they were doing was realy just ftw+icetrike spam.

    so i strongly believe that if simply, feats are distribuited evenly where they should be; by this i mean the simply placing of reanimation feats that are in nightfall in reanimation tree and vice-versa; in that event necros will get more powerfull just by doing that.
    if they actualy fix all the broken feats then necromancer would get instantly more powerfull.

    so in light of that possibility, wich is moving feats around and fixing them, i dont think at all that halving all dots, ftw especialy, would harm the class, would only serve to bring a very needed adjustment,
    for it makes no sense to get a kill from someone miles away wich was full health and got nuked down by other people

    also makes no sense that dots prevent doing minigame objectives for too long a time

    another issue in pvp is the self cooldown on ftw&motd without casting it, its ultra anoying so given they have no clue how to fix it i realy hope they just remove cooldown to reuse ftw

    further more if they choose to reduce dot duration to just 15 secs then would be absolutly needed to add a bit more damage to compensate for it, like its been pointed out by others the damage its currently doing isnt considered a threat to most classes, unless you have that crap situation of no healer in team and 2-3 necros oposite team then it hurts and only then.

    i consider that if they actualy ever revamp necromancer its going to become even more powerfull then what it already is, so i feel its important to point out to funcom developers wich might in near future endevour to revamp class that these particular mechanics are simply wrong and will need to be adjusted upon revamp.

    and like i mentioned several times would be far more interesting gameplay if there were more detonating dots applying curses instead of more damage.
    already plenty of curses wich could be adapted to necromancer gameplay,imagine having one of those useless feats enable you to apply a fizzle/miss chance curse upon detonating ftw and stuff like that, would certainly be more intersting gameplay if made properly
    Last edited by noite80; 2nd April 2013 at 01:14.
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  2. #22

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    Hola !

    ive paraphrased some of your feedback

    Quote Originally Posted by noite80 View Post

    because kill count seems to be amount of damage dealt gets credit of kill.
    Yep, i think youre right. Its probably the sum total of damage from the first hit to death, irregardless of how many times health moves up and down inbetween.

    Quote Originally Posted by noite80 View Post

    if they actualy fix all the broken feats then necromancer would get instantly more powerfull.

    so in light of that possibility, which is moving feats around and fixing them, i dont think at all that halving all
    Im not sure if they would become more powerful (maybe they would) , but it would certainly give more options.
    Afterall, you can only cast x number of things in x time - whether you go for dps, debuffing, crowd controll will determine what skills you choose. If dot duration were halved, and damage increased, this forces you to be be in direct combat a lot more, forcing you to stick with one target rather than switching or moving on if they target moved away. If that were the case then i would hope that life leetching or surviveability would increase.

    Quote Originally Posted by noite80 View Post
    for it makes no sense to get a kill from someone miles away which was full health and got nuked down by other people
    Torn on this. I understand what you mean. Here is a scenario :
    Guard/DT 15000 life. Necro has done 25000 damage over 5 mins. Guard/DT doesnt care - can heal through it and continue on attacking. 5 other team mates come along and kill them (either 15k damage by a majority of the 5 people or by a minority doesnt really matter). Necro gets the credit due to previous damage. OK.
    In this scenario i feel that the major contributor of the 5 should get the kill.

    Ranger/Barb 11000 life. Necro has done 16000 damage over time. Ranger/Barb does care as they are effectively out of combat, chugging potions or staying out of battle until health replenishes. 5 (or 1) other team mates come along, kill them. In this case i think the Necro should get the credit as they forced the player into doing something else to keep them out of battle.

    Even as i write that i see that im proposing that kills should not come from damage over the past x seconds/minutes alone but should take into consideration other factors. AoC really needs to have a better breakdown of information.
    Kill/Kill asists would be a minimum. Healing, debuffing cc etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by noite80 View Post
    also makes no sense that dots prevent doing minigame objectives for too long a time
    Agree with this one - preventing a flag being picked up for 30+ seconds is not right.


    Quote Originally Posted by noite80 View Post
    and like i mentioned several times would be far more interesting gameplay if there were more detonating dots applying curses instead of more damage. Already plenty of curses wich could be adapted to necromancer gameplay,imagine having one of those useless feats enable you to apply a fizzle/miss chance curse upon detonating ftw and stuff like that, would certainly be more intersting gameplay if made properly
    +1000% agree.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Likkal View Post
    Ranger/Barb 11000 life. Necro has done 16000 damage over time. Ranger/Barb does care as they are effectively out of combat, chugging potions or staying out of battle until health replenishes. 5 (or 1) other team mates come along, kill them. In this case i think the Necro should get the credit as they forced the player into doing something else to keep them out of battle.
    Dont really agree with this one, and i guess this is one of major issues people have with necro as class.
    For instance how many times did i run to some player with full health, no dots on him and we started fighting and after a while (no matter if its long or short fight) i got him from 100% to 0% health and dont get kill credit but kill goes to some necro that casted 2 dots on him and than run far back and SW.
    Its really annoying.
    In my opinion if player reaches 100% health and necro dots have expired, than maybe give 10-15 after which dmg counter refresh. So no more getting kills 2 mins after you doted someone.
    I have necro also, only pvp 4 with bad gear and like class but it need some tweaks.

  4. #24

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    hey first off thx for answears its nice to debate this in a civiliced manner .

    despite fact that an absurd amount of feats/spells are broken inadequatly placed, in current form necromancer is the top dps class in pve.

    personaly have no problems passing 2100 single target dps even on zodiac and has best aoe dps as well far superior to any other class.
    facts are this lvl of dps comes from other classes buffs namely tos buffs on melee pets and conq crit buffs demo's buffs, so on so on.
    this lvl of single target dps comes from 8 melee pets being buffed up by other classes buffs and the way they interact with mutilations dot and how they buff up melee damage.

    now using no pets and 8 stack dts dps loss is somewhat like 200-300 less single target, but the aoe dps is vastly improved to numbers dependant on performance of other more then necro player.

    by this i mean for example pulling 8k+ dps on last boss w1 says more how others didnt dps then how you did dps.

    in pvp class is situationaly best range burts class but close range its weak as hell, by this i mean class strong point is when melees are clustered together fighting team mates in 15-20secs you can efectively burst them all down while they are there.

    but close range we have 1 stun that works properly and rest of cc's are pretty weak, this is speacialy true since cc revamp wich turned the snare from instant to casted and the instant kill pet fear to 1 second cast, those 2 cc's wich were at the time best defense tool necros had are now snare very uneficient close range and fear is unusable given its long cast & range makes it easily avoidable.

    another issue is the kill count from lenghty dots wich grants more kills then where earned to necromancers, wich rewards dots+hide in sw tactics wich dont help in anyway team and grant kills to cowards.

    so i guess this sums up what necromancer is now and has been for a long time.

    an easy mode dps class wich anyone with half a brain to bother to reaply dots+send right pets in will obtain good dps in pve and a class wich gets rewarded with kills by enganging in coward tactics.

    now lets say they fix these 6 feat/spells and the feats associated with them
    gelid bones, life leech, tome of epithur, parasitic soul swarm, deathly blizard, ritual of the lich
    its been a long standing wish by veteran players that these be addressed.
    if they are tranformed they will certainly only add more dps possibilities to necromancer and more survivability in pvp at same time.
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    i mean the silly 15 minutes cooldown to tome is absurd if brought down to 4-5 minutes it would have great impact in pvp i think in first weeks of implementing this players would cry nerf strait away untill they memorized spell name and buff and learnd to avoid it, currently its possible to use it once every 2 minigames and once every raid boss wich is absurd when compared to all other class equivalent abilities.
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    if ritual of the lich reuse was brought down to 2-3 minutes it would make it the best end feat possible for pvp and would solve partialy the close combat lack of survivability of necros to have a good fighting chance.

    gelid bones has several requests to make this spell worth casting, personaly i think if it bebuffed elemental torment it would be best change, but others say make it instant if you spec bones of frost, other say add a dot if you sepc bones of frost.
    this particular one as innocent as it looks could change gameplay a bit and make it more interesting.

    let me explore this a little further.

    shatter end feat revolves around the buffs: tough of winter feat and the enemy damge redux from deathly blizzard, it essential detonates those buffs in huge frost damage burst.

    so you have 3 spells linked and none of them worth using atm; namely: gelid bones, deathly blizzard, shatter.
    basicaly the nightfall end feat left chain wich is unusable given its state.
    if fixed changed in anyway it only make necros even more powerfull.
    now craving more power in an already powerfull class is very proverbial evil :P.
    none the less i want that end tree and the feats associated, note now it has an extra feat associated grip of death, all to be worth getting feats/spells.

    the underlying problem of those spells is 3 of them are bad dps and shatter being reliant on them doenst turn the table either in a favorable way.

    its pretty clear that there is only 1 working frost damage spell the allmighty icestrike!!!

    its my hope that these 4 spells feat wich are all linked are made worth casting, now lets not be innocent if they are made worth casting i want them to add to gameplay and not just become some op "i hit that key all die" kind of spells

    now it was purpose of shatter to detonate both gelid bones+deathly blizzard, what i sugest reguarding that is:

    deathly blizzard
    make it a placeable aoe spell wich has less damage then now, its not afected by death god at all, provides friendly targets some moderate fire protection and less cold protection and debuffs any enemy being hit by it with same current enemy damage buff+elemental torment, cooldown to reuse 1-1,half minutes. plus its enemy damge buff denonatable with shatter as it is now.

    gelid bones
    same damage as now, same cooldown to reuse, make bones of frost feat add elemental torment proc to it, make touch of winter a low damage dot instead of a hinder movement, with intent of this way shatter having more worth in pve as a busrt detonation tool given hinder movent cant be used in pve eficiently

    grip of death
    now i know a lot of old timers would like to have it back as it was in the passed prior to nerf because death god now doesnt afect this spell properly, now if your unfamiliar to what this spell used to be it was a hardcore op version of waves of flame(demos) wich went on target person and hitted all around him by vast amounts(oneshot group by half its cast kind of spell), i used to agree but i came to think best way to go around this spell is removing it given class doesnt need 1 ultra mighty "i kill you by pressing this keybind" kinda of spell.
    so i sugest something else entirely:
    replace it with 5 point feat increasing base spell damage of all frost spells.
    or make it a target aoe hinder movement like poms have
    or like in some popular games featuring necromancer class^^
    FROST WALL-A SMALL WALL OF ICE LASTING SOMETHING LIKE 4-5 SECS WORKING AS AN OBSTACLE DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF CASTER.
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    reguarding life leech whatever is done with it removal or other i doubt even making it an added dot somewhere would impact in any way to current gameplay or performance unless it was turned into a casted pulse based vampiric life leech kind of tranfer spell like in skyrim vampiric drain spell

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    just wanted to point out that most likely whatever they touch in necromancer will most likely only empower further class so nerfs will be needed even prior to delivering final version of revamp

    its possibly the revamp wich will need the most care and attention given for starters so many feats are ill places and the same and more simply arent working

    so i hope this glimpse is enough to back up my view that reducing all dots by half wont nerf necros in light of fixing the vast amount of broken feats class has, it would merely lower the tragic amount of kill stealing class has and minimize the preventing flag captures with arent prevented by just 30 secs but more like almost 2 minutes with 42 secs ftw +30 more from infestation caught at end of ftw duration
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  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whalar View Post
    In my opinion if player reaches 100% health and necro dots have expired, than maybe give 10-15 after which dmg counter refresh. So no more getting kills 2 mins after you doted someone
    Good idea, in a mini the battles are constant and dots being reapplied so might not refresh as often as you would like.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by noite80 View Post
    hey first off thx for answears its nice to debate this in a civiliced manner .
    We may not always agree but i promise not to resort to name calling or personal attacks.
    Youve written quite a lot, if i havnt replied to everthing, its likely that i agree with your point of view on it.

    So lets begin..

    Quote Originally Posted by noite80 View Post
    personaly have no problems passing 2100 single target dps even on zodiac and has best aoe dps as well far superior to any other class. facts are this lvl of dps comes from other classes buffs namely tos buffs on melee pets and conq crit buffs demo's buffs, so on so on. this lvl of single target dps comes from 8 melee pets being buffed up by other classes buffs and the way they interact with mutilations dot and how they buff up melee damage.
    You have a completely different playstyle to my own - i dont use pets at all unless its requested for a certain fight - ie blighted for the mana leetch. I much prefer the necro to be the dot/curse class. I know that pet necros do more damage but i cant bring myself to use those filthy creatures :P Because i dont use pets, my pve and pvp builds are exactly the same. Its why i now come in lower in single target dps fights.

    Quote Originally Posted by noite80 View Post
    in pvp class is situationaly best range burts class but close range its weak as hell, by this i mean class strong point is when melees are clustered together fighting team mates in 15-20secs you can efectively burst them all down while they are there.
    If youre not being focused, you can be quite nasty in a clustered fights - gang stench running, p Blast (i forget the name - hits all targets around you) and then casting spike spells can decimate. Plus, fearing a team, rooting 2 or 3 players can really help the people around you. If you are focused or if there is a lot of AOE we drop like a sack.

    Quote Originally Posted by noite80 View Post
    but close range we have 1 stun that works properly and rest of cc's are pretty weak, this is speacialy true since cc revamp wich turned the snare from instant to casted and the instant kill pet fear to 1 second cast, those 2 cc's wich were at the time best defense tool necros had are now snare very uneficient close range and fear is unusable given its long cast & range makes it easily avoidable.
    I disagree on this, freeze is fine, fear can be avoided if the person is paying attention (ive only found 1 person that recognises it on Set and actively avoids it successfully most times) , but if it goes off it gives you a lot of time to get away or dps more. The root is great in narrow areas and better against rangers/demos/other necros - freeze is often broken but you can root and run behind them and cast away. Snare i rarely use due to the long cast time. I only really use it on flag carriers or if the other stuff is on cooldown.

    Quote Originally Posted by noite80 View Post
    so i guess this sums up what necromancer is now and has been for a long time.
    an easy mode dps class wich anyone with half a brain to bother to reaply dots+send right pets in will obtain good dps in pve and a class wich gets rewarded with kills by enganging in coward tactics.
    I think the first part of this can be applied to any ranged class but the second part i think are the actions of only some of the players. I go into spellweave after applying dots but its always where i can keep attacking with spike damage. Even critting dots wont kill a well geared class unless they are low on health and have no healer - it usually takes other people in your team or yourself to do the job. Going into SW is always a calculated risk - take the chance while a fight is going on to sneakily get the buff. It can sometimes go horribly wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by noite80 View Post
    i mean the silly 15 minutes cooldown to tome is absurd if brought down to 4-5 minutes it would have great impact in pvp. if ritual of the lich reuse was brought down to 2-3 minutes it would make it the best end feat possible for pvp and would solve partialy the close combat lack of survivability of necros to have a good fighting chance.
    The only time i use Tomb is to get the mass stun off blizzard - and even then its only in T4. The cooldown is way to long. Lich form (like shatter) is buried past a lot of crap skills you need to invest points into just to get to them - and when you do they are so extremely situational that they arent worth it.

    Shatter use to be the thing you needed for Kylikki - it gave the necro purpose. No longer required.

    Quote Originally Posted by noite80 View Post
    deathly blizzard
    make it a placeable aoe spell wich has less damage then now, its not afected by death god at all, provides friendly targets some moderate fire protection and less cold protection and debuffs any enemy being hit by it with same current enemy damage buff+elemental torment, cooldown to reuse 1-1,half minutes. plus its enemy damge buff denonatable with shatter as it is now.
    i wouldnt even use it with this. The damage is low already and the time between hits is too great. It has a large area but this is really all it has going for it. For me a blizzard makes me think of blindness. To make this worth using it would have to apply a 20-40% chance for hits to miss while being effected by it. Same duration and damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by noite80 View Post
    gelid bones
    same damage as now, same cooldown to reuse, make bones of frost feat add elemental torment proc to it, make touch of winter a low damage dot instead of a hinder movement, with intent of this way shatter having more worth in pve as a busrt detonation tool given hinder movent cant be used in pve eficiently
    this was the best spell ever, a hard hitting dot. Now its weak. Shattering geldid to apply a mass snare would be quite good and woudld mean that there would be some skill required in using it.

    Quote Originally Posted by noite80 View Post
    grip of death
    now if your unfamiliar to what this spell used to be it was a hardcore op version of waves of flame(demos) wich went on target person and hitted all around him by vast amounts(oneshot group by half its cast kind of spell),
    It was better than that ! it didnt have a line of sight check so once it started there was no getting away from it - run behind walls, didnt matter, hide behind a mountain, didnt matter

    Quote Originally Posted by noite80 View Post
    reguarding life leech whatever is done with it removal or other i doubt even making it an added dot somewhere would impact in any way to current gameplay or performance unless it was turned into a casted pulse based vampiric life leech kind of tranfer spell like in skyrim vampiric drain spell
    There are 2 skills that are already available to the necro that sound great and would remove 2 rubbish 'gateway' skills if they were buffed significantly:
    Plagued heart curse and Wretched heart curse.
    PHC needs to hit back way more than it does now and be a skill similar to stall the advance except its applied to a player rather than a proc. 35% damage returned from the player and other surrounding team mates would make this a graet utility skill. 6 second duration, 2 minute cooldown.

    WHC needs to just be buffed from 2/4/8% to 5/10/20% and the restriction on having it apply once every 20 seconds removed completely.

    Ive got 3.5% health tap- its absolutely terrible. I can get 5% more from goulish feast but that doesnt last long. If Lich lasted longer i would spec into that too for more life tap. At the moment its just not worth it.

  7. #27

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    hi.
    about cc's.

    unimaginable terror: its working nicely despite being easily avoidable, most of time i even start casting it just so barbs waist theyr anti fear and i can do it while the start a combo, and sweet part you can use it in sw.

    freeze: it works great and its best cc available but useless in pvp without flash freeze fully feated.

    frost blast: is terribly not eficient and without frost reach its pretty much unusable in pvp.

    ice shackle: used to be very reliable cc instat cast now its has 1 sec cast time wich makes it unusable close fights, it should be made 0.5 secs cast time else its not usable in a rreliable way

    unholy hands: the concept is nice and rooted perseon does get damage dot while rooted problem is any white hit from any melee source emidiatly breaks it rendering it a joke it simply inst reliable in anyway

    deaths terror: when it was instant everyone used it now it has 1 second cast time and no one uses it because its even more easy to avoid then unimaginable terror, would feel perfect if this now useless fear was made a targeted fear and would bring great survivability by adding this for necromancer arsenal of close quarters survivability vs the soldier/healers demigods of aoc

    tome of epithur: makes your targets hit by db pulse get stunned adn every icestrike will stun as well while buff is up its best killing tool in range dps fights after your target uses anti cc you can stun him again with another icestrike its equaly easily avoidable breaking line of sight while buff lasts 20 secs so its not op so if they reduced its cooldown to 4-5 minutes would mean extra survivability tool in pvp.
    also its usable with db if your rooted by sw or a root for aoe pulse stun


    now its not too much to ask to make necro cc's working and not a joke as they are now, especialy given other range classes have no issues with their own class cc's
    would be adquate to keep improvement to cc's feat based to add somewhat a reduction to dps barrir in the sense "you want your cc's to be good in pvp then you cant take just dps feats"

    although would be nice if they made just one feat with multiple points to invest that made frost based cc's to be improved by lower cast times+duration and another for the unholy cc's in like manner

    basicaly 1 feat for improving stun+root+snare, another for improving fears+unholy hands(if that feat was made inate)
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    about your preference with dts builds keep in mind necromancer class is a composite of 2 classes the lich and the reanimator/necromancer

    i like both play styles and was a perfect when multispecs became available.
    in pve i swap to pets for optimized single target and for general of the dead+frenzy tanking pet(necros dread shadow)
    and dts,rotl pure aoe ultra-atomic nuking

    like i tried to debate/sugest fixing the left end feat chain in nightfall so its usable without increasing the dps too much for the class, surely revolves around fixing the trio db, gelid bones, shatter.

    i strongly defend db to be transformed in a placeable aoe because that way i could place it and cast suport cc's or just plain old nuking.
    main useability wich i would like, is to add a lore friendly spell wich added something to combat intead of just being a lame damage spell.

    so it would be cool imho to have a placeble blizzard wich debuffs enemies and somewhat empowers friendly targets.


    it occured me that a blizard is a snow storm with thunder and lightning and current animation doesnt have any lightning at all its a plain snow/avalanche like spell.

    given tos class gives such huge bonus for necros would be cool for this stygian class to grant some bonus eletric stats to the stygian priests its is after all a blizzard!

    would also be great to place in clusters of melees and siege breachs to suport melees if made like i describe.
    i see something like this to deathly blizzard to be a decent mechanic:

    placeable pulse 4-5 times, proc elemental wrack or torment on enemies, remove elemental wracks torments on friendly targets, or add slightly more cold protection, deal low frost damage, and keep adding the enemy damage reduction buff to be detonated with shatter, and add some bonus electric & cold magic damage small bonus buff.

    gelid bones needs to be fixed having in mind making shatter usable with it.

    seriously why add back grip of death it was absurdly op back then if brought back it would one shot clothies and f2p players and still merely dent soldiers.

    would realy prefer it was tranformed in something worth while like frost wall wich is realy cool in the games that have it^^
    or even a simple hinder movement or damage redux/miss chance/fizzle curse of some sort to be linked with shatter detonation.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    about the right side nightfall.

    embrace death needs to be adjusted to proc from necromancer crits or by doing certain spell combinations like detonating pb with chill.

    main reason is to make feat worth it in pve in pvp its always at stack 5 granting 12%bsd with no issues.

    i think the concept is feat is good but it only works if someone dies wich makes it unusable in pve fights given vast majority of pve fights revolves around 1 guy to kill

    Plagued heart curse and Wretched heart curse
    are realy awfull i realy hope they address it but dont make it a dps curse but rather a dinamic curse needing certain combination of spells to be triggered like for example make it only work by consuming motd+ftw+pb, somewhat as a detonation efect again removing dots and planting curse
    about the curse efects itself damage reduction curse/miss chance/fizzle would be most welcomed ones in this age of soldier+healers oppression

    and i think its never enough to reinforce that rotl only think it needs is to be reusable every 2-3 minutes
    Last edited by noite80; 3rd April 2013 at 15:22.
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  8. #28

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    to cut it simply i suport nerfing coward dot mechanics with adding stronger reliable cc's and curses to promote the class to stay with group and can reliably suport grup further in pvp with cc's & curses

    class has shortest range already from all range classes we should integrate better with tos in melee close range dps suport in pvp.
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