Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 25

Thread: Raiding is (usually) bad, mkay?

  1. #1

    Default Raiding is (usually) bad, mkay?

    I hate raiding. Or more properly, I hate the type of "raiding" that makes up most of raids that exist in AoC.

    What exactly is the reason for having "raiding" when most of those "raids" involve at most one groupful of players doing something interesting while all others just sort of stand still nearby? What exactly makes having an enemy with a million hp being beaten up by 6 people executing some sort of tactic while 18 others just hang out nearby and press their default rotation buttons superior to the same enemy with a hundred thousand hp being beaten up by 6 people executing the exact same tactic?

    This thing bothers me and I find the whole concept of this specific type of PvE content to be stupid old junk from UO/EQ days where the technical ability to create something seemed a good enough reason to include that thing, later on set into stone by WoW and its bottomfeeders. I have nothing against "social event" bosses, the type of giant monster that has nothing to its name except a bajillion hp to be burned by dozens of people while they drink beer and smacktalk each other on ventrilo. Those offer a certain type of fun completely different from "hardcore PvE content" that involves those complicated tactics and build minmaxing and whatnot. These two things are completely different with zero overlap (aside from "involves many people") yet they're forced to exist side by side in our "raiding".

    Aside from a few (awesome) raid battles, nothing in game really justifies having all those people around. All of T1 and T2, and most of T3 and T4 could be done with just a single group of 6. That is, if there weren't billions of hp that'd take hours for just 6 people to burn through. If you cut hp of everything down to 25% (and maybe lower damage output for higher tiers a bit so 2 good tanks could survive) with no other real changes, majority of all raid encounters would instantly become a group encounter. Very very few of the "raid encounters" in game have any good reason in their design that requires the presence of more than 6 people (note: mob hp/dps bloat is not a good reason). T1? Already doable. Yaremka? Any tank could survive for the 6 seconds it'd take for everyone else to go use the orbs and come back. Leviathus? Have 1 runner go back and forth between bowls. Athyr Bast? Have everyone except main tank rotating on the imp. Gyas? Just eat the impels. Brothers? Kite the pom. Garden imp? Split the group in two. Entity? Log your ranged alts. Etc etc.

    Sure there are the exceptions like Chatha, Thoth Amon, General Sheng, Emperor, Archfiend of Gore or Bat of Nergal but they're too few (also they're awesomeness incarnate, proper encounter design that justifies having all those dudes around makes them %300 better than ordinary group encounters). In one given large scale encounter, you either do justice to hardcore PvErs or to socializers. When you attempt to do both, the end result is always PvErs having to carry casuals. Then you piss off both sides the moment difficulty passes a certain threshold. PvErs get sick of carrying the dead weight and casuals get sick of being insulted. Remember how many guilds got ruined over T3's difficulty? Have you counted how many left their own guilds to join up with raider guilds? Did those guild jumpers stayed in their new guilds or left the game completely soon afterwards? Most of that crap could've been avoided with nonschizophrenic content design.

    Bygones are bygones, but the basic question remains: What is the point of forcing 24 players to participate in an encounter if there isn't any point other than number bloat to include that many people? The more is not the merrier when things get exponentially harder. So why does this specific kind of schizophrenic group content exist?

    Preemptive protip for the illiterate: I'm demanding every raid encounter be more like either General Sheng or Vistrix and less like Hollow Knight.

    Final note: **** Hollow Knight. HK is an embarrasment.

  2. #2

    Default

    Intressting thoughts. Many times have our guild carried less geared, expd and aa'd ppl through high tier raids. While we do the work, they refuse to become better since we can already kill this boss and won't need his extra dps/healing/aggro.

    The new instances offers very nice gear, but sadly it's not better. Eventhough we put much more effort into it we don't get much from it.

  3. #3

    Default

    Depending of your role, your class and your situation in the raid roster, you can blame Archfiend of Gore or Sheng way more than 3Bros fight or W3.

    Sheng is basically "all the fun stuff for tanking group". Other groups goes in door duty which is basically cc+burn epic (not raiding) trashs for the entire duration of the fight. In the boredom factor, it is like 8 or 9 to 10.

    Archfiend is the same story, all the fun stuff for tanks and heals, dpsers are just more than half the time standing for blood flow duty. Yay, funcom invented the boss were dpsers hit less the boss than tanks xD. I'm not even talking about the casters who have to eat constantly brute force. Yay, so you have choose dpser class, but in HL raiding in AoC you have to tank. Charming !

    I like the idea to make other things than just tank n' spank, but when they design some sort of boss where it's the total reverse and you make things that can't even called "fighting" (like parasite stacking for Nergal, Entity or old Hollow Knight who was so much "melee hate" it was beyond stupidity and killed the fun factor definitly for many hardcore players...).

    It used to be a running joke in my previous guild, when at each new boss we expect to have some sort of dance dance revolution tactic using stygian, aquilonian etc... Oops, i fear i have suggested something for funcom... prepare yourselves to grind thoses dance-related renown quests ;D

  4. #4

    Default

    They really need to introduce two difficulties for the raids. I'm very familiar with most points you brought up but also some people just want to get carried through so having two difficulties would be sooo amazing.

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cins View Post
    The more is not the merrier when things get exponentially harder.
    That is almost certainly true. Imagine porting an encounter of the complexity of Serpent Man Omniprophet to a 24-man scale and you have a certain recipe for wipes and frustration. Same goes for an encounter like Tia Shar, which has relatively simple mechanics, but keeps the entire group on its toes for the whole duration of the fight. No "safe zone" where slackers can gather to avoid danger. No "dps window" when you can merrily blast away for 30 seconds without a thought.

    But then, what's the point?

    - Should they make more 24-man raids which are brutally demanding on every single member on the raid? Doesn't sound all that bad, but it requires a lot of design work and only appeals to a niche audience even in a niche game like AoC.

    - Or should they shift their focus away from raids, to group content which is more accomodating to complexity? Well, they are effectively doing that anyway... FC's plans for Palace of Cetriss remain rather elusive.

    - Or is it really a rewards thing, so we can distinguish people who have done really challenging content from slackers who just got carried along by their raids? I don't know - T4 gear sure is overpowered, but do we really want to go even further up the gear spiral? And isn't it okay to reward people just for the organisational effort of working together in a group of 24, even if the challenge isn't that hard in terms of gameplay?

    So, while I agree with your analysis, I'm not sure what conclusions to draw
    Rathothis|Tempest of Set || Tigrathes|Dark Templar || Isitnofret|Herald of Xotli
    BS|Sin|Demo|Barb|Conq
    Sudatorius|Noob barb on Rage

  6. #6

    Default

    Looking at the game, gathering 24 players isnt only necessary for raids, but also to allow a guild to book its location.

    I understand that some PVErs who are used to carry others would think it is legitimate that they would be offered great challenges in 6 man group, where all will have to play to its max potential, without carrying a dead weight.

    However, as i see it, the requirement of being 24 to start building a guild city reflects a decision to promote large guilds and the possibility to larger groups to play together.

    If players remained in these large guilds are they were supposed to be, then it is equally legitimate that they are offered content for large groups. I see raiding as a possibility given to large group of players/community to play together in the same instance because they simply want to play together. If there was no raid with bosses that have millions HP then how could 24 online members in a guild gather all together to play the same instance towards the same objective? I see it rather that way, rather than forcing 24 people together who otherwise (lets say if bosses had 25% HP) wouldnt be grouping together.

    Some alternatives for 6 man group largely exists that give both challenges in mechanics (new dungeons and unchained versions of old ones) and in the mastery of ones class and character. Just needs to give some directions in the reward for these, so that they wont be perceived as a waste of time or frustrating in terms of rewards because they can't offer anything competitive to T4. But except for T4, you can now find equivalent or better gear rewards in 6 man instances than in raids up to T3.5

    That said i agree with your thoughts and Raths.
    How is it done now in raid, each encounter unlocking the next one, i hardly see how could be introduced highly demanding content for each of a 24 group, without frustrating most of the player base. However, introducing such content that could be done "on demand" for example like the T1 is split in 3 instances that you can access freely could be a good condition. Highly demanding encounters could be bypassed by more casual raids and done by those who seek bigger challenge.
    Last edited by Gevlya; 7th November 2013 at 15:24.

  7. #7

    Default

    Wanna make it more exciting?
    Bring 18 peeps instead of 24....
    People just don't want to invest time in an MMO. A true showing of ADD. I think AOC isn't a game for you if you just want to start out at max levels. You should try star wars, Call of Duty, AION, or any of the other instant gratification games.

  8. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stalkerfan View Post
    Wanna make it more exciting?
    Bring 18 peeps instead of 24....
    Or just bring 12 DTs...
    Doomsayer 2008

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Suctum View Post
    Or just bring 12 DTs...
    Or 1 RingofSet
    Rogue Angels Guild Leader and Progression Raid Leader
    http://rogueangels.guildlaunch.com

    Tmanku 80 Guard | Tmanil 80 ToS | Tmanosu 80 DT | Tmanbank 80 BS | Tmanfu 80 Demo | Tmanwu 80 Ranger | Tmanpope 80 PoM | Tmanpointy 80 Sin | Tmanbarb 80 Barb | Tmanfire 80 HoX | Tmannecro 80 Necro | Tmanblade 80 Conq | Tmanlite 80 Guard | Tmantosjr 80 Tos | Tmandemojr 80 Demo | Tmanthethird Saga Guard

  10. #10

    Default

    Raids don't have to be 6 people carrying the other 18. If you are in a guild with a raid leader who is paying attention, then they can easily boot out nonproductives and not make a few do all the work.

    If you are in a pug raid...some require that players have gear and exp, some don't require anything rather than a warm body. Once you figure out who runs the 'good' pug raids vs the 'fail' pug raids with a lot of slackers, then you can just go to the ones more likely to have people paying attention.

    But even t1 and t2 raids don't have to have just a few doing all the work. If your pug raid has MTs in green gear and lvl 50 blues, that might be a reason to not raid with that pug group though.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •