Builds

[Shax84]

Why the flying frak should the thread, in which we discuss demo builds, be closed?

Take a joke man, I thought Korando was spot on, and his posts included many of the points that I was trying to make.

I would limit saying "someone who doesn't spellweave is a waste of a raid spot", because at one time you say it's not subjective and then you agree with Korando it is, which one is it?

I'm saying there are several encounters where, if you SW, you increase your risk dying...why should people waste a conq rez for someone being greedy on the parse, I wouldn't personally. You make it seem like pve is difficult and only a select few who scrutinize a parse can do well, anyone can do the same given the right conditions,perfect groupings, and awesome tanks.

My point, if you do 1850 dps and I do 1802 dps, it doesn't mean anything that you got 48 more dps than me, the problem is when someone does 1850 and someone of the same class under the same circumstance does 1100, and you don't need a parse to see that.

Are you out to get me or something like that? What the hell man... By the way, how can you see that without a parse tool? If you run around look at cast bars and study character animations of 23 people in a raid you won't get done much yourself... Try to understand at least. If you never ever touch spellweave, it is like Korando says;

Would you like your healers to never cast Green Heal or tanks to have only the 80% of the aggro they could have?

Same considerations apply to damage dealers.

I can also guarantee if I make 1850 dps with tits out full nuke, you wont even be close to that if you don't spellweave. Far from 1802 dps...

You make it seem like pve is difficult and only a select few who scrutinize a parse can do well, anyone can do the same given the right conditions,perfect groupings, and awesome tanks.

For some, PvE is difficult. Looking at numbers in a parse is for specially interested people, to judge if a feat is broken, if a spell is better to use than the other, it is for people who have an extra interest in doing good. When people like that lay down the work of investigating or as you say scrutinizing a raids performance through a parse tool, it does not mean that only the ones at the top can do well. It means he wants everyone to do as good as the others. It means he wants to help and explain mechanics and builds to others who either does not have the time to look at parses the same way, or who just doesn't care.

I am competetive, in most things that I do. I have won several gold medals in archery competitions on national level, rifle shooting competitions, pistol shooting and fishing competitions. Not bragging, just telling why you feel I am elitist.

[Maark]

Take a joke man, I thought Korando was spot on, and his posts included many of the points that I was trying to make.

Oh sorry. Didn't see the smiley at the end. And I too agree with Korando even tho I am a bit careful (maybe to careful) with my spellweaving. Still trying to optimize my rotation and builds and bother some people a lot with 'stupid' questions.

[Suctum]

Take a joke man, I thought Korando was spot on, and his posts included many of the points that I was trying to make.



Are you out to get me or something like that? What the hell man... By the way, how can you see that without a parse tool? If you run around look at cast bars and study character animations of 23 people in a raid you won't get done much yourself... Try to understand at least. If you never ever touch spellweave, it is like Korando says;




I can also guarantee if I make 1850 dps with tits out full nuke, you wont even be close to that if you don't spellweave. Far from 1802 dps...



For some, PvE is difficult. Looking at numbers in a parse is for specially interested people, to judge if a feat is broken, if a spell is better to use than the other, it is for people who have an extra interest in doing good. When people like that lay down the work of investigating or as you say scrutinizing a raids performance through a parse tool, it does not mean that only the ones at the top can do well. It means he wants everyone to do as good as the others. It means he wants to help and explain mechanics and builds to others who either does not have the time to look at parses the same way, or who just doesn't care.

I am competetive, in most things that I do. I have won several gold medals in archery competitions on national level, rifle shooting competitions, pistol shooting and fishing competitions. Not bragging, just telling why you feel I am elitist.

I never said I did not spellweave, your assuming something just like your assuming a parse can somehow magically make you dome kind of top prefomer, when all it can do is tweak a few changes to a rotation. Not every boss in the game should you SW by the way...and those that usually have that mentallity usually end up dying the most.

[stiiixy]

I don't think my comment was elitist, I'm just making a point that parses can be "selective" and your group make up, their buffs, your buffs, and other outside factors contribute to forming that equation. It's not so black and white as that guy makes it seems, who is clearly just a raider and doesn't play outside of that realm and uses a parse to judge other players as the end all be all.

Judging people by a parse is the most elitist foolish thing people can do, unless everyone has the same group conditions, buffs, and outside factors. Honestly, you don't need a parse to see who's bad in a raid and a waste of space, if you can't tell that just by watching you should look at yourself...

I think you think I was targetting you. Have a quick squizz to whom I was quoting =D

[stiiixy]

heheh, probably a shockingly heated debate for sure, but still interesting perspective's. Keep it up!

Demo's can handle it!

[Shax84]

I never said I did not spellweave, your assuming something just like your assuming a parse can somehow magically make you dome kind of top prefomer, when all it can do is tweak a few changes to a rotation. Not every boss in the game should you SW by the way...and those that usually have that mentallity usually end up dying the most.

You know, even when spellweaving, that does not pull agro to you if you do not cast spells? And you can have breaks between spells while spellweaving too? You can stop whenever you want by hitting spellweave again? I can spellweave the whole fight with Strom for example, without pulling agro, because I know what the stances do to the tanks and the agro. I can spellweave the whole fight at Archfiend of Gore (except when taking power transfer). You are mixing in what is the capability of a class with a certain build, and what the capability of the class is with a certain player (skill and knowledge based). Those are two different things, as Korando is on to as well.

I don't even know why I keep the troll alive by kicking the ball back to you.

[Suctum]

You know, even when spellweaving, that does not pull agro to you if you do not cast spells? And you can have breaks between spells while spellweaving too? You can stop whenever you want by hitting spellweave again? I can spellweave the whole fight with Strom for example, without pulling agro, because I know what the stances do to the tanks and the agro. I can spellweave the whole fight at Archfiend of Gore (except when taking power transfer). You are mixing in what is the capability of a class with a certain build, and what the capability of the class is with a certain player (skill and knowledge based). Those are two different things, as Korando is on to as well.

I don't even know why I keep the troll alive by kicking the ball back to you.

You basically said in so few words..."if your not beating me on a parse your a trash player and waste of space". I am sorry if I take offense to that, especially coming from someone who is clearly only a raider.

I find most people who run parses all day are not so interested in their own numbers as they are in other people's numbers. If running a parse is the only measure of e-peen you have, good for you. A bad player won't ever do any better if they do not want to, all your subjective parsing in the world and information stores won't help that player. Besides, a good player can feel what works best, I don't need charts and graphs to tell me to open with Chaotic Blast first as a debuff...or WoF is my main damage source and incinerate is at 0% if my damage, I see hit doesn't hit for sh1t when I see 23 damage ticks...

And yes, it's pretty easy to watch what other people do in raids because once you know the majority of each classes animations you can always tell someone with a bad rotation or they are just moving at half speed, besides, they usually are the first ones to die every 2nd pull so yeah, you don't need a graph to know who's worthless and know, I can focus and do more than one thing at a time and not worry if I'll lose 5 dps off of my parse while doing it...

[Shax84]

You basically said in so few words..."if your not beating me on a parse your a trash player and waste of space". I am sorry if I take offense to that, especially coming from someone who is clearly only a raider.

What is an Assassin without using Miasmas? What is a Bear Shaman without using the Manifestations? What is a HoX without using transformations? They are not as good as players using them. What is a magic user with ability to spellweave that does not ever use it in any situation? Not as good as players that use them. Thats just a fact. I don't care if players beat me on a parse or not, as you say, as I have said, and as others have said, that is fully relative to group setup, role in the raid and type of encounter. Go back to your PvP cool kids club please.

[stiiixy]

relative to group setup, role in the raid and type of encounter

This is the bit I was emphasising about not using SW for my part when I play my Demo's. I wasn't arguing against SW myself, just not to many times I needed it, or just forget about it in the idle PUG raid banter =P

[Darm]

If running a parse is the only measure of e-peen you have, good for you.

Nobody has said anywhere that parses are the only measure; stop putting up straw mans.

I find most people who run parses all day are not so interested in their own numbers as they are in other people's numbers

Yea? So? that's how you learn. There is no shame in checking out what other people do and learning from them or vice versa.

Besides, a good player can feel what works best, I don't need charts and graphs to tell me to open with Chaotic Blast first as a debuff...or WoF is my main damage source and incinerate is at 0% if my damage, I see hit doesn't hit for sh1t when I see 23 damage ticks...

Maybe I misunderstood; but are you actually saying incinerate counts for 0% of your damage? because if you ran a parse, then you would know for sure that's not true....besides that point, any halfwit can work out that you should open with chaotic blast and WoF is your base spell but what parses do is help you refine your rotation even further, to work out what changes can make what small differences, and these differences will add up.

Now I'm not suggesting that you must parse to be a good player, there are many other factors that make up a good player but there is certainly a correlation between parsing and good players...in my experience. IMO this is because people who parse learn their class better on average.

Now in the case of the demo, that is learning how to squeeze as much DPS out of it as possible - that's the whole point of the demo in PVE right?

SO if you learn how to squeeze the maximum amount of DPS out of the demo you always have to option to downscale your DPS for a particular situation. If though you haven't learnt how to maximise the DPS of your demo then you don't have the option to increase your DPS for a given situation.

Parses help maximise what you get out of your class.