Is it time to retire T1+W1?

[Drest]

Maybe the tanks need to learn to hold hate instead of getting humiliated by people in blues.

Maybe the tank is an alt of an alt as well

[Misiuggah]

Maybe the tanks need to learn to hold hate instead of getting humiliated by people in blues.

Tanks who can't hold aggro are probably as common as dps that goes full burst right after Irritate. Dps needs to learn how to manage aggro as much as tanks need to - it's a primary role of every group member.

Dps who is speccing/gearing for full dps is many times as dumb as a tank that stacks hp/mitigation at the cost of everything. The first one won't be able to dps because of high aggro, the second one will not be able to tank because of low aggro. It's the same crap

Many times the tanks are handicapped (low protection bosses, aggro reset, faster swapping) and dpsers don't recognize this. The mindset that tanks should do all the work, results in dpsers who don't know the boss mechanics and just stare while Twisted Viscera or Cyclone mows them down

It's all understood though - I also can't restrain from stupid dps, the sizzling sound of HC and 3,6k Condemnation crits is simply irresistible

[mardragon7]

@OP(didnt read other comments this time)

I just wanna say no it is not time.

New tradeskill system coming they have every chance to blow life into old spot we do not sign for anymore.

Additionally with Raid finder, group finder, it will be easier to start and make these on the fly for roger random, so they might fire easier. Also with a combined Eu and US pop we might get stuff firing around the clock at all hours.

Absolutly no time to kill content

[Civilix]

When we raid in T4 there are still plenty of people that fail at game mechanics that are introduced in T1 and T2, so i would say there is rather time to send more people back to T1/T2!

[Anubium]

I've run tanks in t3, casters and healers in t4, and you need a balance for dps as well as the tanks.

Dps pulls too soon, tanks don't get control, dps dies

Tanks don't get in fast enough, dps starts up but not in control, dps dies

Healers use aoes too fast and pull, healers die tanks die raid wipes

T1/t2 helps people learn their class in a group situation. I like the fact that you basically can solo AOC all the way to level 80: what with offline levels and free 50s, its very possible to end up at lvl 80 with absolutely no group or raid experience. I've seen people in greens or lvl 50 blues going on tier2 raids, let alone tier1 raids, then expect to do a full job and get the full loot even when they can't be bothered to spend a gold or two or ask a friend to get crafted lvl 80 gear. Do you really think people in green/underlevel blue gear know how to play their class or have the gear to do their potential (even for a pug t1/t2)? I doubt it.

Letting people run the baby raids lets them learn the ropes, gives them a chance at easier content and lets new raid leaders start off with a less hectic raid also.

[Derek-Drake]

The more intelligent thing to do is remove the lockout timers from the T1 raids, so that new 80's can gear up enough to be ready for T2, and learn basic group strategies.

[Prima]

My vote: Hard Mode, enabled by having no more than 12 people in the raid at any point. Bosses drop rares.

And/or I like reducing the lockout.

[Sidar]

Fixing progression wont fix the players.
Objectives fix players.

90% of people don't know what Test of faith Is.
100& know what Protection is Niarlatothep.

Progressions main problem IMO is the lack of logic it has. SOLO<GROUP<RAID should be respected by default with few exceptions.

We had t1<t2 And culture for DPS in the mix for a long time

Then khitai came out and t3 was fixed

T1<T2<T3<khitai blues<T3.5<khitai epics<T4

I put blues in there on purpose, Dare to say its wrong. some T3.5 is better some worse then khitai stuff.

Khitai in my opinion requires less of a player then T3, especially cause coordination between 6 people is something that is easy compared to a Raid setup.

Why yould anyone put themselves trough a Raid when they can go with their buddies do KK and get better pants ? Group stuff is better ppl do group stuff. I Am really concerned however on the Crafting revamp. cause when some dev said that crafted stuff is potentially better then t4, I just facepalmed. Get ready to have solo players getting best loot ingame, and for everyone to go ''raid in potain'' while T4 rots. A game that revolves around BOP stuff, Should have a crafting system that works on improving BOP stuff and not a pointless side economy like we have now, NOR have the Crafting stuff making everything else pointless.[/rant]

Why people go t4 with toons with blues ? cause they can go khitai and get gear to do enuf dps and survive.

Is it fair ? well I dont see why not.

Does it hurt the game? yes.

[Texan615]

The Khitai 6 man gear really hurt raiding when it came out in Summer 2010.

At least the T3 weapons and accessories that came out after Khitai made the last 2 bosses of T3 relevant, but as for T3 gear, only the soldiers got a raid set that was worth it, the other 9 classes were better off with Khitai purple armor.

T4 gear thankfully is the best gear in the game, but not everyone has access to T4, and thus T1, T2, and 5/7 of T3 is pretty much pointless for most classes, you can get better gear and get it faster by doing Khitai 6 mans.

[Rathothis]

I'd strongly disagree with the argument that raid drops should always be significantly better than group drops.

Yes, raiding requires coordination between more players, so there should probably be some kind of reward for doing so.

But group encounters can be designed to require more of each individual player than raid encounters since, when designing raids, you do need to take account of weakest link issues. Granted, not all games to that, and in many MMOs (say, WoW) groups are a mere stepping stone in order to get ready for raids. But this is not what AoC has gone for - in fact, it didn't do so even before Khitai / T3 (just think of what Xib HM required of each player in the group back in the day, compared to T2).

But the main issue is that, given the fact that FC have chosen not to increase the level cap, giving people viable loot from dungeons actually allows new players to get ready for endgame raiding in a reasonable amount of time. If they had to go through the traditional raid progression (T1-T2-T3-T4), we'd have even more of an issue with player separation than we have already. And the one's who'd suffer the most from it would probably be the guilds that guys like you raid in, since recruiting players who are ready for endgame would become even more difficult.

For these reasons, it is perfectly sensible for a game like AoC to hand out competitive gear for doing 6-man dungeons. Where AoC does fail, however, is in providing rewards that are adequate to the challenge. You can grind easy dungeons like KK and get pretty much the same rewards which you would get from doing harder stuff (say, Paikang). But this isn't a question of rewards from group dungeons being "too good". It's an issue that follows from the tokens system, which rewards people for grinding instead of going for challenges.