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Old 6th March 2013, 23:38     McFiend is offline   #1
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Default Tank spec help

Can I get some help feating my new 80 DT. I feel I have a decent dps spec, but I'm now looking for a solid tanking build for T1 and 2. Any help would be appreciated.
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Old 6th March 2013, 23:50     Blindman-au is offline   #2
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http://joharaoc.eu/feat?link=v10_11f...243411b36126f0

Tank with something like that, using cunning deflection as required along with your dread shadow although you will find the dread shadow is more like a pet you pull out while standing at the trader than something useful to help you tank in a lot of situations other times it's almost an essential ingredient to making a boss fight a slam dunk as it allows for recovery from mistakes or provides an extra tank on the boss during hard hitting phases.

With enough gear and AAs you'll also be holding agro through dps alone unless you have a very high dpser in your group or raid so it means you should have seal of chaos available for stray pathers or a heal when you need it and irritate for the same or when you see the name switch to a dpser then hit that with a combo finisher.

http://joharaoc.eu/feat?link=v10_11f...19a8128e4120ad

you can also try that build for when you have good gear and acting as an off tank or find that your gear is good enough combined with your HP taps to keep you alive as you tank and dps, you will generate a lot of threat with this build so if you can't take the hits you will find you're spending a lot of time stopping or running back from the respad so get some gear first or use something like this with good agro holding soldiers that can trade agro with you when you snatch it off them.

Last edited by Blindman-au; 6th March 2013 at 23:54..
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Old 6th March 2013, 23:54     Ruhenous is offline   #3
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http://goo.gl/QnUH0

That's what I use to use as a new DT. Worked fairly well for me. But the more gear you get, the fewer points you'll have to use for survivability feats.

Also, if you haven't gotten it yet, work on getting Void of Madness. It is the staple of a DT's DPS.
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Old 7th March 2013, 02:26     torinach is offline   #4
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My current build is similar to Ruhens, a few tweeks here and there but it works fairly well.
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Old 7th March 2013, 03:42     bogus is offline   #5
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DO NOT listen to Blindman-au. His builds are as close to terrible as it's only possible. What's quite an achievement for class with half feats not worth putting any point in.

3 points in Consuming Bulwark? What reason lies behind that? If you boost healing from 9 to 27 it won't become life savior suddenly. Health taps will outnumber this heal dozen times, so no one notice those points. 1 points there only because both healing and dot applied to Seal of Chaos can crit.

1 or 2 points in Covenant of Invulnerability is also joke. 1-2 hits and additional 500 protection is gone. This is one of all or none feats. Eventually 4, if someone really want to spend only 1 ponit in Dark Hand. To get to 7 tier feats, tanking DT usually spends 10 feat points between:
- Dark Hand (0, 1 or 5)
- Improved Covenant of Invulnerability (0, 4 or 5)
- Dissipate + Incinerate Ether + Ether Reap (0, 4 or 5)

No Hex Marked Soul? Really? That have no sense at all. It's all DT need to not fail if getting Yaremka's Eat Soul while getting also main aggro after that. Or great for Levi's fire dot. Also can cover most damage done by Kyllikki Champion's Curse of Gwahlur. Use it right, and DT even won't need stopping hittig him.

3 points in such think like Hexer Might but no point in Approach of Dead or Corrupted Weapons? Or even Sustained Rage? All of those would give better overall effect.

Last but not least – General. For T1-2 DT don't need points in Stone Skin. Fully feated Improved Defensive Stance will give only ~1.5% less protection over than stone skin, but it will also increase physical mitigation by 1.5%, what is more important since all t1-2 bosses main hits are physical. And more than half of them deal only physical damage.


Ruhenous build is also not one I would recommend to anyone interested in t1/2. Mainly because:
- Stone Skin instead Iron Skin – as mentioned already most T1-2 are physical fights
- no Goad – I know, depending too much on Goad isn't best tanking style, but not having save button isn't smartest thing also and it's only 1 point.
- Soul Infusion – with Eather Leech, Crystalized Ether and Ether Reap there is no way to run of mana. And there is not enough PvE fight which could make this feat usefull anyway.
- no Curse of Gwahlur – most fights are for solo tanking, and if there is something wannabe tank could learn in t1-2 is having best possible aggro. It's not achievable without CoG.
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Last edited by bogus; 7th March 2013 at 03:51..
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Old 7th March 2013, 04:22     Blindman-au is offline   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogus View Post
DO NOT listen to Blindman-au. His builds are as close to terrible as it's only possible. What's quite an achievement for class with half feats not worth putting any point in.

3 points in Consuming Bulwark? What reason lies behind that? If you boost healing from 9 to 27 it won't become life savior suddenly. Health taps will outnumber this heal dozen times, so no one notice those points. 1 points there only because both healing and dot applied to Seal of Chaos can crit.

1 or 2 points in Covenant of Invulnerability is also joke. 1-2 hits and additional 500 protection is gone. This is one of all or none feats. Eventually 4, if someone really want to spend only 1 ponit in Dark Hand. To get to 7 tier feats, tanking DT usually spends 10 feat points between:
- Dark Hand (0, 1 or 5)
- Improved Covenant of Invulnerability (0, 4 or 5)
- Dissipate + Incinerate Ether + Ether Reap (0, 4 or 5)

No Hex Marked Soul? Really? That have no sense at all. It's all DT need to not fail if getting Yaremka's Eat Soul while getting also main aggro after that. Or great for Levi's fire dot. Also can cover most damage done by Kyllikki Champion's Curse of Gwahlur. Use it right, and DT even won't need stopping hittig him.

3 points in such think like Hexer Might but no point in Approach of Dead or Corrupted Weapons? Or even Sustained Rage? All of those would give better overall effect.

Last but not least – General. For T1-2 DT don't need points in Stone Skin. Fully feated Improved Defensive Stance will give only ~1.5% less protection over than stone skin, but it will also increase physical mitigation by 1.5%, what is more important since all t1-2 bosses main hits are physical. And more than half of them deal only physical damage.


Ruhenous build is also not one I would recommend to anyone interested in t1/2. Mainly because:
- Stone Skin instead Iron Skin – as mentioned already most T1-2 are physical fights
- no Goad – I know, depending too much on Goad isn't best tanking style, but not having save button isn't smartest thing also and it's only 1 point.
- Soul Infusion – with Eather Leech, Crystalized Ether and Ether Reap there is no way to run of mana. And there is not enough PvE fight which could make this feat usefull anyway.
- no Curse of Gwahlur – most fights are for solo tanking, and if there is something wannabe tank could learn in t1-2 is having best possible aggro. It's not achievable without CoG.
I've tanked all levels of fights using that build have no trouble with agro or taking the hits from the agro I get. Everyone is entitled to tweak their own builds as they see fit to suit their play style and personal preference.

Read how consuming bulwark works and you might work out why I put 3 points in it as it's useful to get down the tree but it's only occasional that it comes in handy, I barely ever run COI even on protection fights as I've found it's not needed for me. I don't waste a feat point on Hex Marked soul as I've found I don't need it.

Approach death only contributes damage on a mob that is low HP, bonus damage on every BFA combo that you do... not a tough choice depending on your preference and who wants another lingering uncontrolled dot on a mob when you want to swap agro, DTs are already having to turn Curse off to agro swap sometimes so why feat for a dot that makes it harder to agro swap if you need to?

Don't like what I've found works for me or works for Ruhenous that's your choice but I don't see you offering any options.

Last edited by Blindman-au; 7th March 2013 at 04:34..
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Old 7th March 2013, 04:43     Mairenne is offline   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogus View Post
most fights are for solo tanking, and if there is something wannabe tank could learn in t1-2 is having best possible aggro.
I can't speak towards the DT since I barely know how to play the class, but I do know guard and conq, and I have to entirely disagree with this.

If you are a new 80, new to raid tanking, my guess is that you do not have the best gear in the world. No one wants to solo tank in T1 or T2, or any instance/encounter for that matter, if they can't survive. And aggro swapping is SUCH a huge part of tanking. Even if the encounter or your group doesn't necessarily require it, knowing HOW to do it is so critical to being a good tank.
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Old 7th March 2013, 04:54     torinach is offline   #8
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You have some interesting points Bogus, the problem is almost no-one only does T1-2 anymore. Khitai instances have craploads more magic damage and so high magic mitigation is a good thing.
If you have gear and AA's your health taps are more useful than the extra armour that ironskin will provide so you want to spec for more DPS.
Yes Consuming Bulwark is a minor tap but it can be useful, IMO this depends on the player though, but micro procs(Consuming Bulwark,corrupt weapons, blighted soul etc) can help with magic dmg, and VoM procs. So IMO Bulwark is 50-50 about whether you take it, I dont.

Soul infusion Ive never specced(havent found the need).

Dissipate ether - ether reap, empowers mystical bane, which is a hard hitting comb and is necessary if you wanna be able to take a DT to T3, especially for the Louhi fight. Other that than it's useful if you wanna run soul barrier a lot, or when PoM crits a lot.

Curse of Gwahlur, is largely pointless. Its a minor retributive damage, yes it does help generate Agro, but once you get gear and AAs you wont use it. Your crits, DPS and VoM will be what you use to generate hate, so in learning to tank with CoG be aware you'll have to relearn to tank without it later(So get a good rotation). The other thing about CoG, it will make it much harder to agro swap because of the way it procs.

Good tanking isnt about epeen waving and "I can hold more hate for the 20 seconds until we wipe", its about agro swapping smoothly as the need arises. Since DTs dont have an agro dump, this can take time to learn. CoG since it's a proc can make this difficult, so dont rely on it and dont think its the be all and end all.
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Old 7th March 2013, 06:57     bogus is offline   #9
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Blindman-au you're so adorable when you're angry.

I do not need to look big on the forums or try to impress anyone here. I have guild and friends to play with. And as you could notice I'm not hiding my character names, so it'd be hard to call me just forum troll. That's first.

Second, I would hardly believe you tanked every level while dropping Hex Marked Soul. Maybe been there somehow, but tanking... nope.
If DT doesn't want to be carried through, beside those T1-2 fight I mentioned already, Hex it's basically must have for:
- Kharon, so you won't die while having few Incinerate stacks
- Keeper of Artifacts Blaze
- Favored of Louhi Repentance
- Archpriest Zaal
- General Sheng's Flame while kitting Trailing Strikes
- dot during Zodiac fight if it's first debuff after summoning animal
- Yah Chieng
- solo tanking Mithrelle
- Lu-Zhi

Also very handy for
- Thoth-Amon
- Entity Projections
- Lurker Brains
- solo tanking Commander in Ai
- Pagoda Adds
- caster slave guards in Jade Dagout

For me those looks like good enough reason to spend 1 point.

Three. No, I do not believe fully feated Consuming Bulwark is somehow useful, even to progress down. Any other feat beside Improved Martyrdom, Improved Covenant of Pestilence, Warped Dread line and Soul Infusion are better than 2nd and 3rd point in CB. But feel free to explain me what is so wonderful behind those 2 points. I've done some parsing trough few raiding days and as I said, healing gain is negligible.

Four. Who ever said DT's spend point in AoD for direct damage. It's just another proc source. And why Hexer Might not Sustained rage. I hope you don't want to tell me 3% on BfA beats 9% weapon damage. If so and any dev sees that - feel free to nerf my dt by swapping Empowered Blood for Aid perk to +15% weapon damage. And I can lose even more, change for me also Hexer Mihgt for another Sustained Rage. I could gimp myself more by spending some points there.

Five. By lingering dot you meant Corrupted Weapons I believe. So no, that damage is hardly able to change anything. Unless you think 1.5% of total damage can have important impact on aggro. And it's again not about those 140 crits from tatal 534 hits during 1h fight.
Oh, sorry I bet you do. Since if CB in same raid healed me for 1.8k from 805k, and you saying 7.2k of 810k would be worth 2 more points.

Six. No DT's do not need to switch Curse of to swap aggro. They may want, but never need or have to.

Fun fact: Have you known Curse wasn't always ability you could switch off? And DT's were feating it anyway. Unbelievable.

Seven. If you would read my post with some patience, and not getting angry because I don't find your ideas smartest you'd notice I've offered options. I haven't called Ruhenous build bad, but not optimal OP needs. After applying those 4 changes, it would become good enough for starter.

----

Mairenne, let me not agree with you. Any tank applying to t1 raiding should have at least gear at culture acheronian level (and that's enough), otherwise they are just leechers/loot whores. I understand no one is born experienced AoC players and I've sucked also. But all raid fights in AoC beside Entity and Bat of Nergal are about tanking. And raid can be only as good as bad tanks there.

For t2 would be nice to have at least 1 big and few smalls from t1. And that's enough to 'solo' tanking when it's possible. I've tanked every t2 having culture set + t1 chest, wrists, boots, hands and belt. 4.5 years ago. Before khitai, before perks. Before multiple nerfs. Ok, Gargoyle master in gargoyle form tends to hit harder now with his crits, but he is the only one.

And of course no one starts with solo tanking, but that should be thing they are aiming for. What would be other point? Having fun from getting better and better, it's the only way. Not from getting shiny epics only. I'm sick with people stopping at 'enough' when there is still long way to top. OP did first step to not be another below average 'not dps until 5th min, let tanks build aggo' player – he came here and started asking. So let's do not hold him back. If he would like to give up - his call, but leave it to him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by torinach
You have some interesting points Bogus, the problem is almost no-one only does T1-2 anymore
OP wants and that's enough for me. You don't post pve spec if someone ask for pvp, because most people play pve and only few is interested in real pvp. So, I can't say protection spec in good for t1-2, because it may be handy in khitai.

And may is keyword here, since only 2 yag bosses, necropolis, pagoda adds, commander in Ai, and and 3rd boss in Pillars do only magic dmg. Others do magical stuff now and then, but still most their damage output is physical. And what's magical can be covered by hex or cunning deflection. So still for undergeared new people Iron Skin should do better than Stone.

And no, CoG is not pointless. There is only one boss I've not using CoG ever, but that's Archfied in Temple of Erlik and DT's can have insane aggro there because he has uber low spiritual protection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by torinach
Good tanking isnt about epeen waving and "I can hold more hate for the 20 seconds until we wipe", its about agro swapping smoothly as the need arises.
I agree. In 50%. With 1st part. About epeen. But no, tanking isn't about aggro swapping. It's about keeping mobs away from hurting dpsers and knowledge how to achieve it. Swapping is only one of used method. Good tank knows when it's needed, and how to do it. Not only how to do it.

Most 6-mans and all t1/2 good DT can tank alone if not gimping physical mitigation too much. And I'm not speaking only about ones full t4. It's not hard to shine while having best possible gear set in game, even is some still menage to fail badly no matter what.
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Last edited by bogus; 7th March 2013 at 07:08..
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Old 7th March 2013, 08:40     torinach is offline   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogus View Post

I'm sick with people stopping at 'enough' when there is still long way to top.
Isnt this enough reason to give a spec that would cope with T1-2 and entry level K6 mans?

Woulda figured you'd believe it was

Quote:
Originally Posted by bogus View Post
So, I can't say protection spec in good for t1-2, because it may be handy in khitai.

And may is keyword here, since only 2 yag bosses, necropolis, pagoda adds, commander in Ai, and and 3rd boss in Pillars do only magic dmg. Others do magical stuff now and then, but still most their damage output is physical. And what's magical can be covered by hex or cunning deflection. So still for undergeared new people Iron Skin should do better than Stone.
Well I dont know your server, so I dont know how that population approaches Khitai, on SET warmonks (RoF and Vortex) and palace are pretty much entry level 6mans. Most undergeared tanks with no or few AAs kite in vortex and in palace. Both require magic mitigation. Hex wont help here, but neither will ironskin. hence my point about Magic mit.

Quote:
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And no, CoG is not pointless. There is only one boss I've not using CoG ever, but that's Archfied in Temple of Erlik and DT's can have insane aggro there because he has uber low spiritual protection.
Didnt say it was pointless, I said LARGELY pointless. It's a tool that an undergeared Dt without AA's can use to generate agro, later when you have those things it becomes pointless cause you dont need it anymore. That's what I was saying, maybe read instead of skim and reinterpret...it'll prevent these misunderstandings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bogus View Post
It's about keeping mobs away from hurting dpsers and knowledge how to achieve it.
Really? the only thing that springs to mind here is, you're a genius.... as in the meme

Quote:
Originally Posted by bogus View Post
Swapping is only one of used method. Good tank knows when it's needed, and how to do it. Not only how to do it.
And you dont think this was covered adequately when I said "its about agro swapping smoothly as the need arises." .....


Quote:
Originally Posted by bogus View Post
Most 6-mans and all t1/2 good DT can tank alone if not gimping physical mitigation too much. And I'm not speaking only about ones full t4. It's not hard to shine while having best possible gear set in game, even is some still menage to fail badly no matter what.
I've seen good Dt's tank T1 and 2, some in frenzy the whole way. Ive seen good DTs solo tank K6's, but that was not only due to physical mitigation. It was due to HIGH DPS and Crit rating to keep their taps maxed, a great rotation and decent mitigation both Physical and Magical. Some DTs have a spec for for Physical and a spec for Magical, as well as a spec for Tali and some just go balls out in a wisdom/magical damage suicide suit and still do well with absolutely stupid DPS. physical mitigation is important, but it's hardly the be all and end all.
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