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Thread: Is PVP really accessible for all players? Few suggestions.

  1. #21

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    And once again the pvp argument revolves around gear begging. GG all.

    Here's my decent advice instead to make new pvp toons hold their own in minis at the beginning.

    First of all, spec your build around few strengths rather than being spread too thin and be good at nothing.
    Buy those lvl80 pieces from trader that you miss.
    Invest 15 points in general for the time being to max out protection and armour.

    If you are soldier, start with the flag bot duty and stick with that. Spec all the bubble you have to make this viable.
    If you are priest, spec for heals, bubbles and to stay alive (those 15 points in general for instance).
    If you are rogue, you should learn your targets, for a start all newbies like you bar soldiers should be eliminated first. For instance sins can kill easily bs and mages, and that should be their priority. Learn the hit and run, guerrilla tactics. Don't spend too much time in the frail. Focus on those with low health, etc.

    Now for once I want to spend few words about pvp gear. How it is now, I wish it was gone for good. It is the most boring gear in the game, it's a one dimensional progression giving only boost in dmg, prot and armour at the same time. T2 completely useless and being ignored by anyone given the stupid amount of token required which one save it for T3. Why there isn't any choice? As an healer why I can't chose gear to enhance my healing power instead of damage. What about gear that reduce cd of crowd control abilities and enhance duration in exchange for less defense stats? One can go on and on, on what gear should really be, something that enhance a given play style, instead of funneling all players to the same race to for stats maximization.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by strangerism View Post
    And once again the pvp argument revolves around gear begging. GG all.
    ...
    One can go on and on, on what gear should really be, something that enhance a given play style, instead of funneling all players to the same race to for stats maximization.
    How about this: Because there is a race to stats maximization, people rightly complain about the lack of a level playing field. You may call it "gear begging", but that's the gist of it. Unless you believe that vertical power progression in PvP is an awesome idea (which you don't seem to do), you should actually support this. And no, there can never be enough threads about this until FC finally do something about it.

    You may also have interesting ideas about gear differentiation, but those will never be implemented given the resources FC makes available.

    Finally, going general might be an option to survive a tiny bit longer - but it doesn't help the basic problem highlighted in many threads, namely that noobies feel completely ineffective when they join a mini.
    Rathothis|Tempest of Set || Tigrathes|Dark Templar || Isitnofret|Herald of Xotli
    BS|Sin|Demo|Barb|Conq
    Sudatorius|Noob barb on Rage

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by strangerism View Post
    And once again the pvp argument revolves around gear begging. GG all.
    My original post did not suggest this. Gearing up on their own is fine.

    The feeling I get, and not only from your post, is that many experienced players simply forgot how does it feel to play a minigame with a fresh toon - even with epic pve gear and "starter pack" AA.
    You get annihilated in seconds, and you are lucky if you are not getting yelled at in the chat. PVP culture is awful in these aspects. New players are treated like crap to say the least. And again, don't forget - new players will have zero pvp experience, unlike you.
    Personally I couldn't care less, I have good chars and experience no problems at all. But I care about PVP in general, and I clearly see that new to AoC players do not want to stay after first 10-20 minis with the same result and psychological pressure. I'm sick of seeing same overgeared people at minis everyday, and my desire is to bring new blood into the game, especially pvp.

    Tl;dr I don't think "git gud" logic is going to help the game and pvp at this point. Changes are needed, that's just a fact.
    Last edited by miksen; 23rd February 2016 at 11:59.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathothis View Post
    How about this: Because there is a race to stats maximization, people rightly complain about the lack of a level playing field. You may call it "gear begging", but that's the gist of it. Unless you believe that vertical power progression in PvP is an awesome idea (which you don't seem to do), you should actually support this. And no, there can never be enough threads about this until FC finally do something about it.

    You may also have interesting ideas about gear differentiation, but those will never be implemented given the resources FC makes available.

    Finally, going general might be an option to survive a tiny bit longer - but it doesn't help the basic problem highlighted in many threads, namely that noobies feel completely ineffective when they join a mini.
    I respect your opinion but I disagree on the fact that one is ineffective just for being in blues. I have seen good and bad performances across the board from low and high pvp level players.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by strangerism View Post
    I respect your opinion but I disagree on the fact that one is ineffective just for being in blues. I have seen good and bad performances across the board from low and high pvp level players.
    This is a legit statement if a player you have in mind actually has pvp experience already.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by miksen View Post
    My original post did not suggest this. Gearing up on their own is fine.

    The feeling I get, and not only from your post, is that many experienced players simply forgot how does it feel to play a minigame with a fresh toon - even with epic pve gear and "starter pack" AA.
    You get annihilated in seconds, and you are lucky if you are not getting yelled at in the chat. PVP culture is awful in these aspects. New players are treated like crap to say the least. And again, don't forget - new players will have zero pvp experience, unlike you.
    Personally I couldn't care less, I have good chars and experience no problems at all. But I care about PVP in general, and I clearly see that new to AoC players do not want to stay after first 10-20 minis with the same result and psychological pressure. I'm sick of seeing same overgeared people at minis everyday, and my desire is to bring new blood into the game, especially pvp.

    Tl;dr I don't think "git gud" logic is going to help the game and pvp at this point. Changes are needed, that's just a fact.
    Well I myself don't speak as a veteran pvp players, or any good doer. I started on fury recently a bear shaman, after 3 years without playing and no experience in healer class. The toon name is Collarbone, so many cac come here and advocate that am an average player at best although I felt that in mini my performance hasn't been that abysmal during level 1 to 4 and when supported properly by so called veterans in my team I could hold my own, be effective, and bring team to victory in many games scoring and carrying and defending flag even with 3 major blue pieces.

    The arguments that noobs or starters can be effective in team play in mini games it's not valid in my eyes and personal experience.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by strangerism View Post
    Well I myself don't speak as a veteran pvp players, or any good doer. I started on fury recently a bear shaman, after 3 years without playing and no experience in healer class. The toon name is Collarbone, so many cac come here and advocate that am an average player at best although I felt that in mini my performance hasn't been that abysmal during level 1 to 4 and when supported properly by so called veterans in my team I could hold my own, be effective, and bring team to victory in many games scoring and carrying and defending flag even with 3 major blue pieces.

    The arguments that noobs or starters can be effective in team play in mini games it's not valid in my eyes and personal experience.

    That is a subjective argument and it can be perfectly valid. However, if you take a look at the game and pvp aspect in particular, it is clear that new players and pve players are not very eager about the system which is present now. Extremely low number of new pvp players only confirms it, so it is my belief certain change is needed for sure. Just advising to be patient for 5 pvp lvls is not appealing to new players. Again, imagine I'm a newcomer. I'm interested in pvp. Okay, world pvp and low-lvl minis are dead, I will wait until 80. At that point I don't have anything to start with, let alone experience. I need to wait once more. Do you really think many will consider this path as an option?

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by miksen View Post
    That is a subjective argument and it can be perfectly valid. However, if you take a look at the game and pvp aspect in particular, it is clear that new players and pve players are not very eager about the system which is present now. Extremely low number of new pvp players only confirms it, so it is my belief certain change is needed for sure. Just advising to be patient for 5 pvp lvls is not appealing to new players. Again, imagine I'm a newcomer. I'm interested in pvp. Okay, world pvp and low-lvl minis are dead, I will wait until 80. At that point I don't have anything to start with, let alone experience. I need to wait once more. Do you really think many will consider this path as an option?
    Okay, although I never advocate to wait to lvl5. My advice is, if one wants to learn pvp to start as soon as he can, at level 80 given the state of server, with blues doesn't matter and be cannon fodder as long as it takes to get grasp of your class and pvp mechanics. Ignore yellers and carry on. Time will tell if you ever gonna be good at pvp not the gear.

    Then going back to op post, the only effective solution I see is to make pvp4 gear available at start which I can think to be sensible enough. Then how long it will take for another post to be created claiming that full AA players are too op and thus the bar should be leveled allowing wannabe pvpers to have a bunch of free AA to spend. And when it is gonna end?

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by strangerism View Post
    And when it is gonna end?
    Hopefully, when we have a level playing field like e.g. in GW2 - or at least like in the game everybody thinks is a horrible grind. But admittedly, that hope is as unrealistic as your gear suggestions earlier in this thread.

    But as a matter of principle, it is so easy that one has to wonder how Funcom ever managed to get it this horribly wrong:
    * new players already have a relatively steep learning curve to deal with, adding vertical power progression to that raises entry barriers to PvP;
    * for veterans, PvP is about being better than the next guy. Beating equal or better geared players thanks to your superior skills just feels better than farming undergeared noobs.

    The only type of player the current system caters to is the "farmer", who expects a power advantage for putting in lots of time. Farmers typically are lone wolf type of players, which also explains the awful attitude towards new players (and towards really skilled players, who are accused of hacks) which we often encounter in AoC minigames.

    Full disclosure: I don't like farming in MMOS. But I would probably benefit from the current system if I could put up with it, since I am neither a super-skilled player nor a noob.
    Last edited by Rathothis; 23rd February 2016 at 13:48.
    Rathothis|Tempest of Set || Tigrathes|Dark Templar || Isitnofret|Herald of Xotli
    BS|Sin|Demo|Barb|Conq
    Sudatorius|Noob barb on Rage

  10. #30

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    Disclaimer : I'm a pve player and have done very little pvp in AoC.

    It's been suggested to make pvp t1 purchasable at lvl0, I would argue it's a better idea to require pvp lvl1 and 2 (instead of 2, 3 and 4). It would provide enough incentive for the players to start pvping while providing a quick and nice reward allowing them to perform better.
    In my opinion it feels better getting rewarded for ingame activity than buying the whole set before you even start playing, and then having to wait weeks (months ?) before you can buy another piece of gear.
    Kaleeh PoM - Resolved Guard - Reducia Sin

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