Is PVP really accessible for all players? Few suggestions.

[miksen]

Hello,

It's my first post here. I have played Age of conan with some breaks. I played right after its initial release, before and after Khitai expansions and some major revamps. Point being - I have witnessed very different states of the game.

Disclaimer: this thread is not about giving stuff away for free to everyone.

ITT I would like to discuss status quo of pvp system in AoC and its accessibility to new players and pve-focused players, as well as overall quality of pvp.

Some things I see now:

- World pvp is non existent on Fury, Rage and let alone Crom;
- Minigames are active only on level 80;
- PVP festivals are mainly played by pvp-focused guilds, mainly consisted of veteran pvp players.

Now, let's imagine a new player who just hit 80 and wants to play pvp:

- Has no experience at pvp at all; (main problem, other two are not that crucial)
- Has no pvp gear;
- Has no or very little AA.

Now, a player has two options: getting into minigames naked or fighting against basalt and trees until he grinds enough for decent pvp gear. (doesn't solve lack of experience problem).

If a fresh player gets into a minigame, wishing to get experience and gear, few things happen:

1) He ruins fun for experienced players, who are hoping to get some decent pvp action with a capable team;
2) He ruins his own fun by being yelled at in chat and being sent to the respad almost instantly.

I can't imagine a possible scenario where a player would want to stay in the game.

I do not have any groundbreaking solutions to this, but I think it would be very ignorant to completely dismiss this problem if we as a community hope for this game to live on.

What do I think would be appropriate:

A) Resurrecting low lvl pvp (on Crom too, of course) via minigames. For example, certain quests could be added for each stage (19 lvl, 39lvl and so on) that would reward players with good gear/xp/other valuable rewards that would be nice for pve progression as well, thus motivating both pve-focused and pvp-focused players to join.
They should be made very visible for all the players.

That would solve few problems:
1) pvp players would get to pvp without waiting to hit 80;
2) players would get minimal experience so needed at lvl 80, thus improving overall quality of pvp content for everybody;
3) pve players would get a chance to try out pvp in a more friendly and stress-free environment.
(Many pve-rs I talk to dislike pvp at 80 solely because they are getting yelled at because they don't have exp and don't know what to do).

B) Splitting endgame minigames into 1-5 pvp lvl and 5-10 pvp lvl.

That could work in a good way, because:

1) New players would be eager to join a mini where they would stand a chance;
2) Experienced players would have more chances to play a decent minigame with experienced players and appropriate challenge.


This is how I see it. Both new and veteran players would benefit. What do you think?

Plus, these suggestions do not require many resources from dev team.

[Derled]

Hello,

It's my first post here. I have played Age of conan with some breaks. I played right after its initial release, before and after Khitai expansions and some major revamps. Point being - I have witnessed very different states of the game.

Disclaimer: this thread is not about giving stuff away for free to everyone.

ITT I would like to discuss status quo of pvp system in AoC and its accessibility to new players and pve-focused players, as well as overall quality of pvp.

Some things I see now:

- World pvp is non existent on Fury, Rage and let alone Crom;
- Minigames are active only on level 80;
- PVP festivals are mainly played by pvp-focused guilds, mainly consisted of veteran pvp players.

Now, let's imagine a new player who just hit 80 and wants to play pvp:

- Has no experience at pvp at all; (main problem, other two are not that crucial)
- Has no pvp gear;
- Has no or very little AA.

Now, a player has two options: getting into minigames naked or fighting against basalt and trees until he grinds enough for decent pvp gear. (doesn't solve lack of experience problem).

If a fresh player gets into a minigame, wishing to get experience and gear, few things happen:

1) He ruins fun for experienced players, who are hoping to get some decent pvp action with a capable team;
2) He ruins his own fun by being yelled at in chat and being sent to the respad almost instantly.

I can't imagine a possible scenario where a player would want to stay in the game.

I do not have any groundbreaking solutions to this, but I think it would be very ignorant to completely dismiss this problem if we as a community hope for this game to live on.

What do I think would be appropriate:

A) Resurrecting low lvl pvp (on Crom too, of course) via minigames. For example, certain quests could be added for each stage (19 lvl, 39lvl and so on) that would reward players with good gear/xp/other valuable rewards that would be nice for pve progression as well, thus motivating both pve-focused and pvp-focused players to join.
They should be made very visible for all the players.

That would solve few problems:
1) pvp players would get to pvp without waiting to hit 80;
2) players would get minimal experience so needed at lvl 80, thus improving overall quality of pvp content for everybody;
3) pve players would get a chance to try out pvp in a more friendly and stress-free environment.
(Many pve-rs I talk to dislike pvp at 80 solely because they are getting yelled at because they don't have exp and don't know what to do).

B) Splitting endgame minigames into 1-5 pvp lvl and 5-10 pvp lvl.

That could work in a good way, because:

1) New players would be eager to join a mini where they would stand a chance;
2) Experienced players would have more chances to play a decent minigame with experienced players and appropriate challenge.


This is how I see it. Both new and veteran players would benefit. What do you think?

Plus, these suggestions do not require many resources from dev team.

Edit by Anzu: Please be constructive. Making sense would also be a good thing.

It is easier and no need to waste cash for funcom

[Rathothis]

B) Splitting endgame minigames into 1-5 pvp lvl and 5-10 pvp lvl.

That could work in a good way, because:

1) New players would be eager to join a mini where they would stand a chance;
2) Experienced players would have more chances to play a decent minigame with experienced players and appropriate challenge.

I agree that PvP is not accessible enough for new players. However, I don't think splitting the queue would do a lot of good at this stage. Waiting times for minigames are going up and up, even during main hours.

Funcom were working on a good solution at one point ("Unchained" minigames, with normalized gear and AA), but this appears to have been shelved.

Absent this, I think the best solution would be
* to make PvP T1 gear available without PvP level restrictions. As of now, FC still insist on selling it in the shop, which is absurd and should be stopped. If they insist on selling power items in the shop, put PvP T2 and T3 there for god's sake.
* to significantly increase the AA gain from minis. Since PvPers really benefit from some PvE AAs (notably, passive protection boni), maybe consider adding some mastery urns to minigame victory / Path of the Vanquisher quests.

[miksen]

I agree that PvP is not accessible enough for new players. However, I don't think splitting the queue would do a lot of good at this stage. Waiting times for minigames are going up and up, even during main hours.

Funcom were working on a good solution at one point ("Unchained" minigames, with normalized gear and AA), but this appears to have been shelved.

Absent this, I think the best solution would be
* to make PvP T1 gear available without PvP level restrictions. As of now, FC still insist on selling it in the shop, which is absurd and should be stopped. If they insist on selling power items in the shop, put PvP T2 and T3 there for god's sake.
* to significantly increase the AA gain from minis. Since PvPers really benefit from some PvE AAs (notably, passive protection boni), maybe consider adding some mastery urns to minigame victory / Path of the Vanquisher quests.

But if I am right about new and pve players, splitting would actually increase the number of people playing. But yeah, I would rather see it as an experiment for a month or so. And Unchained minigames sound like a terrific idea. I really hope that comes to live someday.

[-Tecata-]

Hello,


What do I think would be appropriate:

A) Resurrecting low lvl pvp (on Crom too, of course) via minigames. For example, certain quests could be added for each stage (19 lvl, 39lvl and so on) that would reward players with good gear/xp/other valuable rewards that would be nice for pve progression as well, thus motivating both pve-focused and pvp-focused players to join.
They should be made very visible for all the players.

That would solve few problems:
1) pvp players would get to pvp without waiting to hit 80;
2) players would get minimal experience so needed at lvl 80, thus improving overall quality of pvp content for everybody;
3) pve players would get a chance to try out pvp in a more friendly and stress-free environment.
(Many pve-rs I talk to dislike pvp at 80 solely because they are getting yelled at because they don't have exp and don't know what to do).

B) Splitting endgame minigames into 1-5 pvp lvl and 5-10 pvp lvl.

That could work in a good way, because:

1) New players would be eager to join a mini where they would stand a chance;
2) Experienced players would have more chances to play a decent minigame with experienced players and appropriate challenge.

Resurrecting low lvl pvp - sounds great but aint gonna happen w/o the population. Minis: 79's never existed, then the 59's died, then the 39's...then finally the 19's. Why? low lvl pvp is fun, no AA advantages to speak of etc. Those who stayed eventually leveled, improved their toons and skill over years and have become damned good players. Enough of being captain obvious.....

Most fresh 80's are going to get steam rolled, period.....for a while. Will they get discouraged? Yep.
And low lvl doesn't automatically mean getting steam rolled. I've seen pvp lvls 1, 2,3....kick ass.

As for breaking apart minis into lvl brackets, would be nice but we don't have the population to support it, especially on Fury.

Only trash players flame low lvl 80's - it's not the norm.

[miksen]

Resurrecting low lvl pvp - sounds great but aint gonna happen w/o the population. Minis: 79's never existed, then the 59's died, then the 39's...then finally the 19's. Why? low lvl pvp is fun, no AA advantages to speak of etc. Those who stayed eventually leveled, improved their toons and skill over years and have become damned good players. Enough of being captain obvious.....

Most fresh 80's are going to get steam rolled, period.....for a while. Will they get discouraged? Yep.
And low lvl doesn't automatically mean getting steam rolled. I've seen pvp lvls 1, 2,3....kick ass.

As for breaking apart minis into lvl brackets, would be nice but we don't have the population to support it, especially on Fury.

Only trash players flame low lvl 80's - it's not the norm.

Low lvl population is quite healthy on Crom nowadays. People do purist instances and find groups quite quickly. Group quests are present as well. I think encouraging minis would be worth trying. At very least, it would not hurt anybody.

About PVP 1-2-3 kicking ass, I bet those are toons of experienced players. I was pointing out the problem with new to the game players.
And again, about splitting: imo, it would not bring minis down. There is a great number of players who only do pve and are too afraid to sign up for pvp, especially on Crom. With more friendly system introduced, I think there is a big chance we would actually see an increase of players in minis.
Plus, ask yourself, how often do you see PVP 1-5 player on a mini? (Except JS). I for sure don't see them very often, same 7-10pvp faces everyday.

[Rathothis]

But if I am right about new and pve players, splitting would actually increase the number of people playing.

I understand the argument, and previously thought the same. But I just don't think it is realistic anymore, given the game's current population.

Also, I don't see the added value compared to making PvP T1 gear available for in-game gold without PvP level requirement. Bear in mind that, in PvP 0-5 minis, players who don't buy PvP T1 in the item shop would still be at a disadvantage vis-à-vis those who do. So in terms of closing the power gap resulting from FC's silly focus on vertical power progression in PvP, making PvP T1 available to new players actually is more meaningful than splitting the queue.

As to your point about skill/experience, I don't really see how a split queue would help with the learning curve. Here's two potential scenarios:
* if veterans sign with their low PvP level alts, the noobie-friendly environment you have in mind won't be realized;
* if veterans stick to the high level queues, PvP 0-5 minis will not encourage new players to learn how to PvP, and they will hit a brick wall at PvP level 6.

The best way to improve is to play with experienced players; splitting the queue to allow for "noobie-friendly" minis doesn't help with the learning curve.

[Mustaine]

My life continues to be pathetic and AoC mini-games seems to be the best place for me to embrace its futility while having company while I drink heavily. PvP-6 means nothing when you just don't care. PvP is done; has been for a while ~ same12 people join and yell at each other. Let it go brutha.

Side-Bar question (PvP related) ; if I jumped into the lava on purpose ~ who gets the "kill"? Does it matter if I jump at 2% health vise 75+% ? I've tried both and can't get a clear result.

[miksen]

I understand the argument, and previously thought the same. But I just don't think it is realistic anymore, given the game's current population.

Also, I don't see the added value compared to making PvP T1 gear available for in-game gold without PvP level requirement. Bear in mind that, in PvP 0-5 minis, players who don't buy PvP T1 in the item shop would still be at a disadvantage vis-à-vis those who do. So in terms of closing the power gap resulting from FC's silly focus on vertical power progression in PvP, making PvP T1 available to new players actually is more meaningful than splitting the queue.

As to your point about skill/experience, I don't really see how a split queue would help with the learning curve. Here's two potential scenarios:
* if veterans sign with their low PvP level alts, the noobie-friendly environment you have in mind won't be realized;
* if veterans stick to the high level queues, PvP 0-5 minis will not encourage new players to learn how to PvP, and they will hit a brick wall at PvP level 6.

The best way to improve is to play with experienced players; splitting the queue to allow for "noobie-friendly" minis doesn't help with the learning curve.

Learning wise - it still would make a huge difference. Playing against overgeared pvp 10 monsters is not learning in any way.
However, if T1 is instant - that would be a good solution as well. However, I don't see it happening. After all, that is their source of income.

[strangerism]

The only way to improve in this game pvp is continuous practice and commitment. Stick through the bad times enough and you'll get better at some point to reap some satisfaction and respect. Gear and AA will come along the way to ease the divide but that is not the main focus if one wants to perform better in pvp.