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Thread: Dungeons of Dragon´s Spine - Whats the idea here?

  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopsing View Post
    So you guys just do the dungeons for the drop?
    Looks like you all forgot to play just for the fun factor.
    This is denying the whole concept of modern MMOs. You know, playing to improve your character, and having fun while doing so ?
    Kaleeh PoM - Resolved Guard - Reducia Sin

  2. #12

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    In my opinion it is a question of difficulty and not player number .
    Why should raids reward you with better gear just because more players are required?
    A system like this is rather rewarding hardcore than skilled players.
    Unlike many people think those are 2 completely different things . For example: People playing 24/7 , having multiple toons full t4+ and still comboclicking , keyboardturning , moving with mouse and showing a quite modest performance on parsers.
    The difference is that they have the time and will to play every day , every week at a set time to join a raid.

    While I am not opposed to the idea, that players who spend a high amount of their lifetime into playing and dedicating most of that time into end game raiding , also get rewarded with the best gear available, I do not understand why , maybe a new , ultra hard dungeon shouldn't be dropping gear of the same level.
    Typing on mobile
    Excuse mspellings and strange auto erections
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    (current) Mains: Slackjoint (tos), Daraiios(sin) , Quorrin (DT)

    Yes the new store still blows

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjoint View Post
    In my opinion it is a question of difficulty and not player number .
    Why should raids reward you with better gear just because more players are required?
    A system like this is rather rewarding hardcore than skilled players.
    Unlike many people think those are 2 completely different things . For example: People playing 24/7 , having multiple toons full t4+ and still comboclicking , keyboardturning , moving with mouse and showing a quite modest performance on parsers.
    The difference is that they have the time and will to play every day , every week at a set time to join a raid.

    While I am not opposed to the idea, that players who spend a high amount of their lifetime into playing and dedicating most of that time into end game raiding , also get rewarded with the best gear available, I do not understand why , maybe a new , ultra hard dungeon shouldn't be dropping gear of the same level.
    Not sure about this. I've seen some clicking and keyboard turning even in end-tier raid videos, and I've seen quite a few videos where I'd comfortably say that I'd do better. But those guys are an asset to their raids by showing up at an agreed time several times a week. A game that requires relatively large raids has to reward that kind of reliability, otherwise the whole concept of raiding wouldn't work. Also, a game that requires relatively large raids has to account for the fact that there is much more of a weakest link problem in a group of 24 than in a group of 6.

    So on balance, I think there has to be some kind of extra reward for raiding which is not tied to the challenge it poses to each individual player. But I also think that balance has shifted too far towards raids - currently, the third and fourth raid tier (T4 and T3.5) grant rewards which are better than pretty much any dungeon gear, with very few exceptions (e.g. the prot tali from Sepulcher, or the healer cloak from Tian'an). Hell, even soloing now gives some better gear than dungeons, at least for those who have the stomach to grind renown with Clan Vigdis...
    Rathothis|Tempest of Set || Tigrathes|Dark Templar || Isitnofret|Herald of Xotli
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  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathothis View Post
    Not sure about this. I've seen some clicking and keyboard turning even in end-tier raid videos, and I've seen quite a few videos where I'd comfortably say that I'd do better.
    Yes that was exactly my point . That many people are hardcore players , but still keyboardturning , comboclicking and showing an overall modest performance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rathothis
    "But those guys are an asset to their raids by showing up at an agreed time several times a week. A game that requires relatively large raids has to reward that kind of reliability, otherwise the whole concept of raiding wouldn't work."
    I said that I got no issue with this idea , but dont see a reason why a super hard dungeon (maybe harder than DS ones) shouldnt be rewarding gear of the same level.

    You are basically disagreeing with what i say , reforming the statement and coming to the same conclusion again.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rathothis
    "Also, a game that requires relatively large raids has to account for the fact that there is much more of a weakest link problem in a group of 24 than in a group of 6."
    I dont think so , when there are only 6 players it is way harder to hide lack of knowledge and the dropping out of an individual will weigh heavier

    Anyway , a discussion like this is nonsense , there wont be a change or new dungeons anytime soon.
    Might as well discuss about altering the color of the sky
    Typing on mobile
    Excuse mspellings and strange auto erections
    --------------------------------------------------
    (current) Mains: Slackjoint (tos), Daraiios(sin) , Quorrin (DT)

    Yes the new store still blows

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjoint View Post
    I said that I got no issue with this idea , but dont see a reason why a super hard dungeon (maybe harder than DS ones) shouldnt be rewarding gear of the same level.

    You are basically disagreeing with what i say , reforming the statement and coming to the same conclusion again.
    Not the same conclusion. Similar maybe, but there's a key difference. I said T4 level would be appropriate, while you say gear of the same level as endgame raids - which now would imply T6 (but maybe you didn't mean it that way - in that case, sorry).

    Agree that we're unlikely to see new dungeons any time soon. But they could add some incentives for doing existing hard dungeons - e.g. a quest with a cooldown of one week, which rewards a Dragon Tear for completing a certain number of DS/Unchained dungeons, or something of the sort. A man can dream...
    Rathothis|Tempest of Set || Tigrathes|Dark Templar || Isitnofret|Herald of Xotli
    BS|Sin|Demo|Barb|Conq
    Sudatorius|Noob barb on Rage

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathothis View Post
    Agree that we're unlikely to see new dungeons any time soon. But they could add some incentives for doing existing hard dungeons - e.g. a quest with a cooldown of one week, which rewards a Dragon Tear for completing a certain number of DS/Unchained dungeons, or something of the sort. A man can dream...
    I think everyone have noticed how many pugs we have lately, its a good and healthy thing for the game. By giving same rewards from 6man-content, will obviously make alot of people that get over 60 relics only do group content untill they get their tier, which is gonna be a risk for the wellbeing of the game, do you see how that idea can have flaws?
    Last edited by magnum92; 21st January 2016 at 21:09.
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  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjoint View Post
    In my opinion it is a question of difficulty and not player number .
    Why should raids reward you with better gear just because more players are required?
    A system like this is rather rewarding hardcore than skilled players.
    Unlike many people think those are 2 completely different things . For example: People playing 24/7 , having multiple toons full t4+ and still comboclicking , keyboardturning , moving with mouse and showing a quite modest performance on parsers.
    The difference is that they have the time and will to play every day , every week at a set time to join a raid.

    While I am not opposed to the idea, that players who spend a high amount of their lifetime into playing and dedicating most of that time into end game raiding , also get rewarded with the best gear available, I do not understand why , maybe a new , ultra hard dungeon shouldn't be dropping gear of the same level.
    if you can do the dungeon only once a week like a raid then yes i can agree with getting same gear quality.

    although I dont quite follow your logic where you draw the line between hardcore and skilled or whats your point about where the difference is...

  8. #18

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    @Rathotis : Yes I wasn't quite accurate about gear level but I actually meant T4 ( even tho newer aren't even that much if an improvement without set boni)

    @TribunLeader: It's quite simple; hardcore is just someone who dedicates several hours a day to this game , but that doesn't automatically make them decent in playing . See keyboardturning , comboclicking , slow movement, low heals/dps/aggro etc
    Typing on mobile
    Excuse mspellings and strange auto erections
    --------------------------------------------------
    (current) Mains: Slackjoint (tos), Daraiios(sin) , Quorrin (DT)

    Yes the new store still blows

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by magnum92 View Post
    I think everyone have noticed how many pugs we have lately, its a good and healthy thing for the game. By giving same rewards from 6man-content, will obviously make alot of people that get over 60 relics only do group content untill they get their tier, which is gonna be a risk for the wellbeing of the game, do you see how that idea can have flaws?
    Sure it can have flaws. But if you have a few less PUGs and a few more people running DS/Unchained dungeons, that's not necessarily bad for the game either. 6-man groups are social activity just like raids, and as such they can create ties which keep people in the game. Probably, doing hard dungeons together even creates a tighter bond with your group mates, than tagging along in a PUG raid does.

    Also, I'm not sure whether you're right about the concrete example I provided, because T3.5 / T4 PUGs are an easier and faster way to get those Dragon Tears than the quest I sketched out would be.

    So yes, I can't rule out that there won't be any negative effects. But I don't think that they would be major, and overall I think that a game that doesn't tie gear progression (other than endgame raid tier, which should be the best in the game) exclusively to raids is likely to appeal to a larger number of players. But I don't have hard facts to back this up, so I guess I won't really be able to convince you
    Rathothis|Tempest of Set || Tigrathes|Dark Templar || Isitnofret|Herald of Xotli
    BS|Sin|Demo|Barb|Conq
    Sudatorius|Noob barb on Rage

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by TribunLeader View Post
    if you can do the dungeon only once a week like a raid then yes i can agree with getting same gear quality.

    although I dont quite follow your logic where you draw the line between hardcore and skilled or whats your point about where the difference is...
    Just make the gear similar point value and skip the linear progression between gamestyles. A raid gear can be better in raids than in a 6man for example, simply because it has to be less "all-rounded". Of course you can also at set boni or special raid multipliers for gear as well to make certain stats of gear there important. There is absolutely no imperative argument that raid gear has to be "better" (here in a linear sense) than 6ppl, solo or pvp gear. Different, probably. It is entirely valid to have for example raids with unique gear, that is far less powerfull than solo quest gear, as long as the raid and gameplay is fun enough and well designed. If gear from raids is better for raiding than other gear, than all the better (again, this does not mean it has to be more powerfull in all aspects).

    If you want to draw a line, one line is "able to finish the content within a few tries without disbanding", another line might be "finishing content without wipe" or even "finish content really fast and still being able to push important chars that need gear".
    Last edited by Kurt2013; 21st January 2016 at 22:33.

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