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Thread: Re: New Solo Dungeon Idea.

  1. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt2013 View Post
    You think calling people irrational and lazy, while twisting and turning and interpreting things into their arguments, is not rude? You even quoted it yourself. He did not "just explain".

    @magnum92: the whole game layout is a bit hybrid. The argument is not valid as an imperative as gcustoms rightly said, but as a guideline and means of illustrating a progression curve it works fine. The boundaries actually are not as black and white, but in general it should mean: "xyz should get easier, if you specialize and play mostly xyz in a certain amount of time". Again, how does the idea of supplementing and making it possible to better yourself and prepare for group activities during solo play, hurt this?

    It could hurt of course, if badly implemented and i understand your caution and outcry to a certain point, but imo all your concerns (e.g. all that could effect the people who raid now negatively) can be adressed by balancing, tweaking and limiting and actually designing that content properly (e.g. so that it does NOT violate the guideline as Bori and pvp quests do).
    And here it is actually a lot easier than with wb or Bori (where you can either go wb OR raid) since, if you appeal to casual solo (or small teams), that supplement can be moved and done in a time window where it does NOT collide with raiding or group content.

    And so far tier 1 and tier 2 raids have a huge advantage still over wb: you can calculate with them. you know how much time they'll take roughly (which sometimes work to the raids disadvantage too and it is part of the problem) and that you will get at least something out of it, unless it gets wiped and messed up completely. World boss is lottery. And to solve the guideline problem with wb, they would just need to limit the number of possible tokens per week and char. Another thing they could do to counter the reducement of raids through it (if it is actually true) is to make old world raid gear more valid in t3+ or let it be upgradeable through crafting or questing (in raids). That way the casual solos would get some power progression and vanity things and would then seek out actively raiding, if they chose to do so.
    Again, i find it completely valid to say, if you want t2 gear you need to have finished t1 at least once. But i find it not valid to expect alts and new players now to do the same veterans did to get to t3 (e.g. countless week and months of raiding the lower tiers). Tier progression is a bit weird anyway, since now t3,5+ rely on much more than just "having finished t3 successfully".

    Please correct me, if i am wrong here, but supplement implementation means i my eyes a scenario like this:

    Player A has not much time to play, but reserved one evening every so weeks to join a friendly raid. This gives him calculateable progress, but generally less than his friends have (player B and C etc.). To keep this day valid in his schedule, he needs the core raid time to stay there. So now, player A will be in same state to join the raid a few weeks later than he left it, while the other raidmembers progressed. With supplement he could have done a bit inbetween on his own. The actual problem i have seen with this setup comes, when the raid wants to move on. Maybe even new players joined or they merge with other players from a higher tier. So guess who will be left behind, when it comes to rescheduling the weekly raid day? Of course a friendly raid will not change that day and try to keep player A in the team as far as possible...but do you want to deny there is a certain threshhold to that? And do you really find it a good solution that player A looses his fun to raid with friends and joind a different raid (which might have a different raid schedule)? Similar scenarios are returining players, players leaving the raid and need replacement etc...
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt2013 View Post
    @Kellisia: One problem i see with the suggestion is to make them "difficult" and "time consuming" at the same time. With that it would not appeal much to casual players, too. Why not give it a raidlike instance handling, checkpoints (or queststeps) and cooldown instead. You could also require a prequest achieved only, if you also finished a certain raid (a bit like a system where you get "tickets" for these instances that are only obtained through active raiding). That way they could be long and challenging, since they will not be designed to do in one go as other current solo instances (they actually are in competition to group content, since they will reset mostly, if you leave them for group content) and it will not be in competition with the rest of raiding as much as feared at least.

    For example: To enter the frost temple instance, you will need to have killed yankhmar to get the quest from the hunter AND maybe some more pve solo quests in the zone or the amphi chain. That temple can then only be done once a week at your own leisure. One yankhmar raid might be enough to allow you enter it for a month, then you will have to raid yankhmar again to get access. You could do this for unchained instances too to implement the grind a bit more in the quest structure and world. So another solo instance might be "lost bandit treasure" in kheshatta (there are even doors for that) leading to a soloable maze, but only after you did T1 AND caravan raider normal. then next step "curse of the lost raider treasure", if you did t2 and caravan unchained. etc. etc. etc.

    The current questlog and storyline and gameworld (lost areas, unused doors, paths etc.) already offer a lot of opportunities here. Technically all doable, because you have the questlog variables, you can set timers on instance access, you can check for conditions to stay in instances, you can define quest steps and allow reset content skipping according to that and you have the lore/models to make it believeable.
    To start off Kurt all Ideas are welcome and appreciated.

    You have to think about the pre-quest thing. Think about t2 and t3.. We used to need a key to get in them both. They took the key out. Than t3 quest accessories the quest can be shared. But to get the quest yourself you still have to get Levi's are.
    I do see where your going. But even if Dev's were to put that type of drill into the mix. How long till they take it out like they did the keys?

    Either way any content is needed. If it my idea or others. But a lot of people live in the dedicated world of how MMO's and I mean all should be. The people who are objecting to opening up Gear to all types of players, are just in a box of a repetition. That
    has been created in the MMO world since it predecessors, yet they all have their own differences in a way. Opening that box would break that repetition, An it just doesn't seem correct to them, lack of creativity in the brain. Yet if it was to work and bring in money. This could catch on to other MMO's and reface the Normal.
    Last edited by Kellisia; 12th March 2015 at 22:15.

  2. #92

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    The ones who want progression are asking for raid gear, not just for better gear you can get solo. Why don't you ask for the missing (because dropping) khitai pieces? There are pieces you can not buy, but only get in the dungeons. The same with buyable gear from dragon spine: Why don't you ask for that, why does it have to be raid gear? Ask for different/new/better drops/more rare tokens for solo dungeons. Perhaps those weird weapons the last boss in DMH drops (cross bow with +unholy magic damage...really?) can be changed into something more...interesting.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt2013 View Post
    Player A has not much time to play, but reserved one evening every so weeks to join a friendly raid. This gives him calculateable progress, but generally less than his friends have (player B and C etc.). To keep this day valid in his schedule, he needs the core raid time to stay there. So now, player A will be in same state to join the raid a few weeks later than he left it, while the other raidmembers progressed. With supplement he could have done a bit inbetween on his own. The actual problem i have seen with this setup comes, when the raid wants to move on. Maybe even new players joined or they merge with other players from a higher tier. So guess who will be left behind, when it comes to rescheduling the weekly raid day? Of course a friendly raid will not change that day and try to keep player A in the team as far as possible...but do you want to deny there is a certain threshhold to that? And do you really find it a good solution that player A looses his fun to raid with friends and joind a different raid (which might have a different raid schedule)? Similar scenarios are returining players, players leaving the raid and need replacement etc..
    That is absolutly not the way raids work, at last not in the german community. You can join any T1 if you have at least green gear and survive while questing at your Level. You can join T2 with a bit of T1, khitai blue (which you can get purely solo), as a tank even craftet protection gear is fine. If you are ready for T3 (again, khitai blue + some T2 work for most classes, tanks have to have a bit more, but the decision to invest more time gearing up was made at the time you created your tank), you can go there. If you can raid only every 3 weeks or so, you can do that. If you want to join a T4 and are still missing pieces of T3, you can easily get khitai purple by soloing, or joining a NG/Chosain dungeon run now and then. If you are not a tank (again, you know tanks are like little girls and need a lot of dresses), you even can join a T5 if you have some T4/khitai purple pieces. But a T5 might not take you in, because you only can raid 1-2 times a month. But then you can find other solutions, like charing a spot with some other player, who works shifts and can only raid 1-2 times a month. You are making it sound like you are falling way, way, way back behind if you do not gear up at the same amount of time than "the rest of the raid". People have bad luck with loot, people are leaving the raid, people come back. If you once hit the "entry border" to a raid, this raid will take you back. It will not dump you because your classmate has 3 T5 pieces more than you. You make it sound as if a T5 raid starts with 24 people on full (full-full) T4 toons, every single one is there for every single raidday, on the same toon. That is simply not how raids work. Show me ONE raid, that is not an über-high-end-progression-T5-we-are-working-on-Kylli raid, that works like that. I bet even that (few) über-high-end-raids do not work like that.

    Kurt also made the suggestion to create dungeons for 1-3 players, scaling in difficulty. I like the idea, but there is no instance like that in the game, so I guess it would be a lot of coding/work. And knowing about the limited manpower and ressources it is over the top to speculate about something we have not seen ingame.

    And it is very interesting, that all the people who are positiv about the OPs (and/or Kurts suggested changes) didn't answer the question, how such a solo dungeon could be balanced. Again, look at the solo dungeon in dragon spine (quest). It is very well designed, it is a lot of fun, but as good as it is it uses only the few mechanics you can use if every class should at last have a chance to beat it. And despite its good design it is not very well balanced at all (again, a DT or conq can do it easily in T1 gear, a ranger needs a lot more gear and AAs). If you come up with different dungeons for different archetypes/classes you can stop right there, because then we will be in Neverland, and not talking about a realistic change for the game.

  3. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Feadara View Post
    how such a solo dungeon could be balanced
    Pfft. Grim Gray God. Gray Man-Ape. It's always possible to make complicated and difficult solo battles, single player gaming's been doing that before MMO was a thing that existed. Guard don't have enough damage? Use the +dps gizmo. Sin dying in a second? Run to +invul zone. This doesn't even count as an objection.
    ...
    So let's say we don't call these theoretical single player instance loots "raid gear". They're still gonna have stats equal to raid gears, otherwise very few players (only the ones who aren't e-donkeys) would be playing this theoretically new and hypothetically extremely difficult content and it'd be a waste of manpower to create them. And if they're equal, why name it differently?

    Also the entire point of this exercise is to reduce exclusivity. Exclusivity is bad. Do you not like money, why would you want to turn anyone away? Since AoC is legally obligated to fail at cash shopping forever, their only bet is to gain more subbers. Make the casual scum happy, show them a way that seems to lead towards all the shinies, and they might maybe perhaps keep paying money every month. And if one or two weirdos prove themselves to be statistical errors and grind every day by themselves for years and get a copy of your oh so precious pixels, who cares?

  4. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Feadara View Post
    ...
    And it is very interesting, that all the people who are positiv about the OPs (and/or Kurts suggested changes) didn't answer the question, how such a solo dungeon could be balanced. Again, look at the solo dungeon in dragon spine (quest). It is very well designed, it is a lot of fun, but as good as it is it uses only the few mechanics you can use if every class should at last have a chance to beat it. And despite its good design it is not very well balanced at all (again, a DT or conq can do it easily in T1 gear, a ranger needs a lot more gear and AAs). If you come up with different dungeons for different archetypes/classes you can stop right there, because then we will be in Neverland, and not talking about a realistic change for the game.
    They already have such "balancing" ingame through the different nightquests per archetype in tortage as you already mentioned. But instead of neverland, this also means they can check for the class and change mobs stats, path options and boss behaviour according to that. You already mentioned how the tweaks could be. THere do not need to be different actual maps (in worst case it will be the same map, but with different mobs and bosses inside), but you can balance it out per class by changing the power of debuffs, ccs, add spawn rate, etc..

    @Kellisia: You can easily solve it by not restricting raid access depending on quest, but just the supplement access. So those who invest in exploring, story and some prework before the raid will be rewarded, while the others can still do exactly as they do now.
    Last edited by Kurt2013; 13th March 2015 at 09:58.

  5. #95

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    Oh the discussion on this thread has gotten weird. For me, the only incentive for raiding is gear, dkp systems are ridiculous. If they were meant to be implemented the game would have its own system. To say that my statement is flawed because "I'm a solo player, why do I want raid gear" is absurd. I want it because it's the best, I'm not going to give myself an aneurism over it, it's just pixels.

    For anyone calling this a shortcut I invite you to get full Khitai gear solo. Go ahead, I'll wait.

    For those without that patience it takes MINIMIM 140 days, versus 20?(maybe) if you did it in groups. Let's take that same 1:7 ratio and apply it to raiding, a month ago was the first instance I heard of people getting full t5, that's 6 months
    So 3.5 years to get full t5 using this theoretical solo raid? I don't see that as being unreasonable.

    To me solo stuff is much more rewarding, you can't die 20 seconds in and have 23 people kill the boss so you can loot with them. You only have you to rely on.

  6. #96

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    Whether or not you take offense to the word shortcut is irrelevant. If you can't do T5 content, you don't deserve T5 gear. Shortcut.

    Why would someone solo their way to full K6 when it's so easy to do most of the group instances?

    If you don't raid, no point in having raid gear. All it would do is make the ez mode content you prefer even easier. Slaughterhouse, Attilius mansion, villas...... Funcom should open up top gear for that? That's all a "solo raid" could ever be.

    You need to get past your petty jealousy for people who have T5 gear and start working on getting some for yourself instead of begging like a panhandler for funcom to give it to you.

  7. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chillee View Post
    Whether or not you take offense to the word shortcut is irrelevant. If you can't do T5 content, you don't deserve T5 gear. Shortcut.

    Why would someone solo their way to full K6 when it's so easy to do most of the group instances?

    If you don't raid, no point in having raid gear. All it would do is make the ez mode content you prefer even easier. Slaughterhouse, Attilius mansion, villas...... Funcom should open up top gear for that? That's all a "solo raid" could ever be.

    You need to get past your petty jealousy for people who have T5 gear and start working on getting some for yourself instead of begging like a panhandler for funcom to give it to you.
    You should strive to sound like less of a douchebag if you want to be taken seriously. You should also learn what shortcut actually means, it's a useful word in daily life.
    ...
    Oh the discussion on this thread has gotten weird. For me, the only incentive for raiding is gear
    How is that any fun? If you don't like raiding as an activity, how could a bunch of dumb pixels justify the amount of time and effort you need to succeed at anything above T2? Some argue that the victory over raidbosses and such justifies that hassle, and it's a possible opinion, but raiding solely because of pixels is incomprehensible. You could've gotten a shitload more pixels from Diablo with all that effort if that's all you care about. This is an alien mentality.

  8. #98

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    I'll say it only once: there's no need to resort to name calling. Keep it civil.
    Short cuts make long delays.

  9. #99

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    People always can do solo content if they wish, but in no way it should substitute raiding. Exclusive rewards are pertinent to any competitive business and hobby and should be always in the game.
    Do you want T4 or T5 gear? Raid and spend fewer hours on the forum discussing how others' people achievements should be yours while you do nothing. We know that we might not get some items (not convenient time or not enough time), but we respect and accept those who can have it. Do I want the same item? Absolutely. Should one ask the game developers to bring the game to ruins for me so he can get the items? No. One would spend time creating his own DKP site, invite people whom he knows, optionally lead the raid, and raid at his convenient time.
    That is the purpose of powerful raid gear and MMO: raiding, gathering more people, and having or being someone who will organize it. Funcom did the right thing here.
    Last edited by LunaticAsylumLA; 14th March 2015 at 04:46.
    • Remove daily rewards and the raid finder;
    • remove membership bonuses;
    • disable PVE XP for daily challenges;
    • remove WBs forever on Crom;
    • slow down the AA gain;
    • lower the PVP XP gain or remove the streak system;
    • remove AoE looting;
    • add the missing mobs back to Khesh., F. of the Dead, and Eigl. Mount.;
    • fix the 250+ms ping;
    • take the key away from Saddur;
    • revert T3, T3.5 (10.21.15), T4 (10.21.15), and GGG changes;
    • remove energy and add skills (like taunt) back.

  10. #100

    Default keepin it short..

    There are some contradictions to the original post request/idea for solo instance, but I'm not gonna get into it.

    You say you want a new solo instance but one that would have high tier relics and even rare relics (dragon tears/shards of ice) as loot.

    I see this in either of 2 ways:
    1. You like this game/your characters and you want to keep playing it, but want fresh new content. (would you still be ok with it if it didn't drop high tier loot?)
    This is completely normal and perfectly understandable, most want fresh content at this moment.
    And your solo dungeon would be just another (good) idea to work with if Funcom had a budget large enough to create a lot of new content.
    However they don't, so I hope they prioritize and invest funds into what's most important for any MMO which is group content.
    (1. group/6player instances 2. raids/24player instances 3. new playfields 4. solo instances in my opinion)


    2. You want high tier loot, but can't be bothered to raid or put any proper effort into actually acquiring it. (this is where those contradictions come up)
    In this case, my opinion is that you want something for (basically) nothing and your idea should be ignored by the devs as they have more important matters to deal with.

    Cheers
    Last edited by Achossa; 23rd March 2015 at 23:27.

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