barbarian speed buff needs revamp

[Jerohn]

It is NOT normal when 1 button skill hits for over 2k. When class have 2 skills each of them hits over 2k and one of them is instant and 40 sec cd its called OVERPOWERED.

[viroku]

The new "super-OP" Decap, used with the aid of Eyes of Madness when available, hits for a little over 2k on average. The "feedback" in this thread is utter crap, and can be reduced to a bunch of players who are saying "I did a few minis on my barb and I rock so much to feel OP so plz nerf, who cares anyway it's not my main class".

Notice how nobody here is bothering to post actual numbers from actual parses from actual minis (preferably several) hitting actual players, or if they do it's just a single example which of course can be cherry picked.

If they did, their numbers would look something like this:

http://postimg.org/image/7w802f74v/

http://postimg.org/image/6fz74vxzp/

These are parses from actual pvp minis played on Crom, post patch, with a maxxed out barb in berserker spec (completely full AA trees, pvp level 10, pvp T3 armor, pve T4 weapon, plus the potions you can buy at the armory by converting mini tokens into bori ones).
As you can see, reality is just a bit different from the ongoing claims. There's a 3.8k crit, indeed, but it's A STATISTICAL OUTLIER, NOT THE AVERAGE.

Note also how the "amazing" buff of the new Devastation is resulting in an overall crit rate which is LOWER than the basic one (over 23% base crit chance on my barb). A nice amount of good those 5 feat points are doing, isn't it?

You see now why I get mad at the so-called "feedback" of these so-called pvp pros? And that's without even taking into account how useless feedback on a class is in general if all you're taking into account is your own results, since that is obviously skewed by personal skill and toon power level and as such it's pointless. Proper feedback would also take into account what's happening to THE OTHER PLAYERS using that class. Ever notice how when they ask for nerfs they never mention those pvp level 0-3 barbs going 0-22 in a JS? I wonder why...

You are mad at feedback other gives and you post parses of mini game? Really? How is that relevant? How do we know who did you target? How do we know if you debuf them, uses eyes, buf yourself? Beside hitting decap on your target and using splash dmg to other targets to get to your average dmg is just lol.
Beside im sure its very important what my average decap some clothie in mini when i hit him for 3-4k with it and ATG on top of it.

And crying about devastation, really?

@armatur comparing barb to sin or necro is bit silly. Barb have very simmilar dmg now and way better survival. Beside I have never been crited for 6k on ice strike or on sin bomb.

Here is some screens of 6 decap in a row in JS on crom with t1 geared barb. This are not highest dmg i did, but i decided to take screen of 5-6 decap in a row for you. So they vary from 2k+ to almost 4k. I can only imagine what figures can be with t4 sword
http://www.truimagz.com/host/viroku/...picture075.png
http://www.truimagz.com/host/viroku/...picture076.png
http://www.truimagz.com/host/viroku/...picture077.png
http://www.truimagz.com/host/viroku/...picture078.png
http://www.truimagz.com/host/viroku/...picture079.png
http://www.truimagz.com/host/viroku/...picture080.png

[ieronymous]

any of you think that it is too op that barbarians can run in at super speeds, dish damage and run out without being killed.
I can kb a barbarian but unless I can kill a barbarian in one kb, the barbarian will get away before I can do anything.
Also, why is it that in minigames my barbarian (along with everyone else's barbarian) will get speed buff even when no magic hits them (like when capture the skull just first starts in the first 2 sec) other times at random moments.

arcane marauder needs a fix, period.

All I see these days in minis is barbs topping the kills...they are imba..they have everythin,dps,ccs,anti-ccs,imba regen,speed buffs,they can do whetever they like,they are the most versatile class in pvp...This thread is completely wrong..It doesn't reflect what is happening in pvp..barb being weak is a myth that u guys created, because u are greedy and u want to be even more overpowered...Always stating the facts here...!!!!!!!!!

[Chaman-bourru]

Beside im sure its very important what my average decap some clothie in mini when i hit him for 3-4k with it and ATG on top of it.

@armatur comparing barb to sin or necro is bit silly. Barb have very simmilar dmg now and way better survival. Beside I have never been crited for 6k on ice strike or on sin bomb.

I don't think you'ld have much lower or higher numbers if you parsed a sins detonation in minis. 2.2k average, considering you've probably used it a fair amount of time on tanks and such, still sounds huge to me. Especially since if you'd parsed you'd have ATG hit for an average of at least 1.8k. 4k average unmissable burst is truly insane when:
- No preperation is needed compared to a necro burst that requires a 2.5sec cast
- Barbs are rarely focused because getting them down is tedious and you rarely manage to finish them
- 2H reach + constant speedbuff + lots of anti-cc

Sin and necros might be able to pull out the same average burst damage or even a little higher, but unless roaming in the dominating team the sin will have died a lot or spent a lot of his time in hide Talir style, and the necro will have stole most his kills thanks to dots because with peeps always on his ass, standing still for 2.5sec would have rarely been an opton. Not saying sin and necro are weak.

[quote]Proper feedback would also take into account what's happening to THE OTHER PLAYERS using that class. Ever notice how when they ask for nerfs they never mention those pvp level 0-3 barbs going 0-22 in a JS? I wonder why...]

I believe proper feedback should also take into account what's happening to the other players not using that class.

That being i think these next few weeks i'll try to update the rankings i made a while ago: http://forums.ageofconan.com/showthr...ats&highlight=
i'm pretty sure barbs ranking would have changed drasticly

[MagnusLL]

I don't think you'ld have much lower or higher numbers if you parsed a sins detonation in minis. 2.2k average, considering you've probably used it a fair amount of time on tanks and such, still sounds huge to me. Especially since if you'd parsed you'd have ATG hit for an average of at least 1.8k. 4k average unmissable burst is truly insane when:
- No preperation is needed compared to a necro burst that requires a 2.5sec cast
- Barbs are rarely focused because getting them down is tedious and you rarely manage to finish them
- 2H reach + constant speedbuff + lots of anti-cc

Sin and necros might be able to pull out the same average burst damage or even a little higher, but unless roaming in the dominating team the sin will have died a lot or spent a lot of his time in hide Talir style, and the necro will have stole most his kills thanks to dots because with peeps always on his ass, standing still for 2.5sec would have rarely been an opton. Not saying sin and necro are weak.

Proper feedback would also take into account what's happening to THE OTHER PLAYERS using that class. Ever notice how when they ask for nerfs they never mention those pvp level 0-3 barbs going 0-22 in a JS? I wonder why...]

I believe proper feedback should also take into account what's happening to the other players not using that class.

That being i think these next few weeks i'll try to update the rankings i made a while ago: http://forums.ageofconan.com/showthr...ats&highlight=
i'm pretty sure barbs ranking would have changed drasticly

I didn't parse ATG because I usually don't spec it and in those minis I was using a build to test the impact of the changes on my preferred full-berserker barb build. But even so, speccing ATG doesn't come free. Even assuming you can ditch WW by going back to Atrocity instead of Devastation (which is probably sensible since Devastation itself is underwhelming in its actual effects), you're still giving up Upheaval and that's a huge blow to a berserker's ability to apply sustained pressure, since then you're forced to fall back to Butcher IX as your bread-and-butter combo, or alternatively go the Hammer and Anvil /Staggering Blow route but then you need to drop a whole lot of other stuff.
That said:

A) That parse is from a barb with the absolute maximum PvP combat statistics you can currently get in the game. Just about the only non situational improvement would be using the pve buff potions instead of the pvp ones. That means you're looking at the upper limit of what a barb can do in pvp in terms of raw numbers. Even more so given the fact that the build I was using is rich in passive, always-on weapon damage buffs, which are the ones which will show the bigger increase in average numbers if for nothing else because they're never on cooldown. Just for reference, this was the build used in those parses:

http://goo.gl/6N2Kv1

Apart from the obvious +20% from Blood Rage, you have the fixed +20% from Swarm fighter, the fixed +7% from Lethality, and the fixed +775 CR from Rampage. The only possible improvement would be to move a few points around to also get the +25% from Reave, but as far as fixed, unconditional damage goes... those numbers are basically the ceiling.

B) How is all of this significantly different from before? ATG has been the same for years and Decap just got a slight (20% or so) damage increase in the last patch. If anything, the best part about it is not even the damage increase, but the fixed 50% crit chance that a fully feated Decap now seems to have.
Also, if you're saying that the results from an overall parse are inherently going to decrease differences in average results, then pre-buff Decap would still have hit for an average like 1.5k or so, so the "average unmissable burst" of Decap + ATG would still have been in the region of 3.5k. What made the Decap + ATG combo godly OP all of a sudden? And would it be really justified to spend 10 feat points (Decap + Rampaging Horde) to get a combo on 30 seconds CD hitting for less than 2k average for a fully maxxed out toon?
Oh and: tanks happen in minis. You can't ignore them (or the damage you're doing to them) as if it's somehow "invalid".

C) Necro burst is RANGED. How is 2H reach better than range? The 2.5 seconds preparation time is more than offset by the fact you can start the sequence from a safe distance, unlike the barb. The main necro problem lies in its ridiculous squishyness once engaged in melee, rather than a lack of burst.

D) Decap is not unmissable. It's a normal zero-step melee combo without any AoE component, meaning you need to have your target in the normal frontal cone weapon range for it to hit.

E) To get Decap + lots of anti-CC (which I'm assuming means at least EB + Escape Artist) you need to spec minimum 13 points in general, meaning you're either giving up the Unstoppable line, Swarm Fighter, or anything lower than Blitz in Reaver. In fact the only spec which allows you any DPS buffs at all from Reaver would be some variation of this:

http://goo.gl/DnQHV4

Also note that the barb anti-CC comes from rogue general abilities so it's hardly exclusive to the class.

As for your last remark (you need to also take into account what's happening to the other classes) I totally agree. In my personal experience, barb is hardly dominating the current pvp scene and as a class it's clearly inferior to several other choices (Conqs, Rangers and PoMs being the most obvious examples). Still, I'm looking forward to your new findings.

[Jerohn]

Both specs you show are BAD. If you cant make a good spec for pvp youre not good in pvp at all. In first spec you have no charge+great dmg buff from reaver = fail. In second you spend 7 points for antiroot but don get unstop = fail. Youd better l2p than whine about how bad barb it is when more skilled and experienced ppl said barb is good.

[Zatochi]

Lol Magnus. Whining about how bad a barb is and you use specs totally gimping this classes dps as much as possible. Jerohn just right, both specs are awful bad. No wonder you have struggles in pvp.

1.first 5 points in reaver is an absolut must have. if you do not know, how much those points boost barbs dps, you know nothing about that class. And why agile mind? to much points for too much CD on this feat. its useless. Especially because barb has much survibility and does not need any anti cc. then you are not speccing reverse swing. gimping dps further (both specs btw). And then you are talking that you use the always on passive dps boost? Oo okay reverse swing isnt passive but can be always on. thats 61% wepaon damage less then easily to gain when proper speccing. 61%!!! Thats about 75 dps less with pvp sword. In both builds atrocity is missing which is kinda essential, at least 2-3 points should go there, boosting your survibility a lot. then in a complete zerker specc hammer and anvil should be a must have. boosting dps from stun to in incredibly numbers.

or in short: you are saying you are using all the dps boost and survibility the class has. But actually you are lying. you dont do that. Survibility isnt only anti cc. you cant have all. if you wanna have all anti cc you need to live with less dps. Not a single class can specc all the anti cc in general and can go for 100% dps. you gimp barb classes possibilities on purpose at it seems to give your whining some arguments. USe a viable spec, learn your class and you will notice, that barb is in the top 3 of the class ranking at the moment. its very powerful not having any dps issues nor survibility issues. It can win against any single other class in this game kinda easily. i even oneshotted (REALLY oneshotted) a pvp 9 sin in pvp gear with an upheaval critting.... 2k crits on deff soldiers with decap is regular, numbers can go up to 6k on clothie and a little luck with the dps buffs.

[viroku]

Lol Magnus. Whining about how bad a barb is and you use specs totally gimping this classes dps as much as possible. Jerohn just right, both specs are awful bad. No wonder you have struggles in pvp.

1.first 5 points in reaver is an absolut must have. if you do not know, how much those points boost barbs dps, you know nothing about that class. And why agile mind? to much points for too much CD on this feat. its useless. Especially because barb has much survibility and does not need any anti cc. then you are not speccing reverse swing. gimping dps further (both specs btw). And then you are talking that you use the always on passive dps boost? Oo okay reverse swing isnt passive but can be always on. thats 61% wepaon damage less then easily to gain when proper speccing. 61%!!! Thats about 75 dps less with pvp sword. In both builds atrocity is missing which is kinda essential, at least 2-3 points should go there, boosting your survibility a lot. then in a complete zerker specc hammer and anvil should be a must have. boosting dps from stun to in incredibly numbers.

or in short: you are saying you are using all the dps boost and survibility the class has. But actually you are lying. you dont do that. Survibility isnt only anti cc. you cant have all. if you wanna have all anti cc you need to live with less dps. Not a single class can specc all the anti cc in general and can go for 100% dps. you gimp barb classes possibilities on purpose at it seems to give your whining some arguments. USe a viable spec, learn your class and you will notice, that barb is in the top 3 of the class ranking at the moment. its very powerful not having any dps issues nor survibility issues. It can win against any single other class in this game kinda easily. i even oneshotted (REALLY oneshotted) a pvp 9 sin in pvp gear with an upheaval critting.... 2k crits on deff soldiers with decap is regular, numbers can go up to 6k on clothie and a little luck with the dps buffs.

I was just about to write something like this, thx for beating me to it
Crits on upheaval can really deal great dmg but since combo is slow to perform its still o.k. Dmg of decap and atg are way faster for great burst that dont root you for a while. I really didnt wanted for barb to become class with such 1 click OP thing. Now it have better survival than sin, better cc and every 30 sec it has fast burst comparable to sin.
Dont get me wrong even before this revamp barb was strong class but it took some skill to fight and land combos, now if lucky even bad barb can steal kills with crit on his decap+atg.

@MagnusLL: you again speak of parsing mini game. Please try to understand how funny that is. Also you still trying to argue that your average parse of 2k dmg on decap is low. You were hitting many secondary targets there, probably a lot of soldiers to, 2k average doing that is HUUUGE.
One funny thing i noticed in your parses, you did a lot, really a lot of knockbacks and only 6 finishing blows. You forget about those or is it to hard to click so many things
And how was ATG buffed up? Well not that much, only devastation is real buff to ATG, but since decap was buffed pretty significantly its natural to add ATG to that burst. Btw 20% buff on decap is not nothing, and crit chance is really great.

[Jerohn]

ATG is based on weapon dmg too. Just do it with t1 sword and than with t3. You will see that dmg of atg will increase a lot.

[viroku]

ATG is based on weapon dmg too. Just do it with t1 sword and than with t3. You will see that dmg of atg will increase a lot.

I know but he was asking about changes on the barb that affected ATG now when compared to before .
Btw thats why im testing build with haste now