24 Player Raiding: A Relic of the past?

[Boesch]

I'd say the order of importance is

Tank > Heal > DPS

Obviously understanding basic mechanics > everything.

I wonder in what fights is it more important to have better DPS than better tanks? There are many fights you can do with pretty bad DPS but there are a whole lot less that you can do with bad tanks/heals.

[Valicard]

I'd say the order of importance is

Tank > Heal > DPS

Obviously understanding basic mechanics > everything.

I wonder in what fights is it more important to have better DPS than better tanks? There are many fights you can do with pretty bad DPS but there are a whole lot less that you can do with bad tanks/heals.

It's not, it just seems that way. The main reason why is because all the "tactics" involved in the game (almost every last single one of them recycles until the raid wipes or boss dies. If you have terrible DPS the it's more likely to end up as a wipe then a kill because it puts people longer in the "fire" and thus more chances to screw up on whatever tactics. This was evident on EVERY PUG from entity on down. Think of it this way. With good DPS you only have to throw the ball into the basket twice to win. With poor DPS you have to get it into the basket 5 times. It's a huge difference.

[Mantic0r3]

doesn't help you when you lie on the floor after the first throw

[medke]

There is no good dps without good tanks to hold it

[Valicard]

There is no good dps without good tanks to hold it

Again in my experience this has never been the problem. It's the difference between PUGs and Guild raids. In PUGs everything lacks in this order DPS>>>heals>tanks.

[tapwater]

Again in my experience this has never been the problem. It's the difference between PUGs and Guild raids. In PUGs everything lacks in this order DPS>>>heals>tanks.

You are wrong, the other people are right.

1. If you have crappy tanks, you fail, regardless of what your DPS looks like.

2. If you have good tanks, you can often win if you have bad DPS. You can win quicker/easier with good DPS, but it all depends on the tanks being good enough.

[Valicard]

You are wrong, the other people are right.

1. If you have crappy tanks, you fail, regardless of what your DPS looks like.

2. If you have good tanks, you can often win if you have bad DPS. You can win quicker/easier with good DPS, but it all depends on the tanks being good enough.

This just isn't true. Lack of DPS to burn down adds or burn down the boss fast enough is the key. It's never the tank that fails to hold aggro or die it's almost always the support team around the tanks that die to something non-boss related or some tactic (which probably involves in some form DPS) that goes wrong the 5th or 6th time doing it. This is primarily what PUGS talk about over on vent, why is our DPS so terrible? Do we even have enough DPS? And the old time favorite, "The DPS here sucks!" If you were ever involved in a true PUG Raid you would know this as a indisputable fact, the fact that you don't only means you never been in one of these PUG raids.

[tapwater]

It's never the tank that fails to hold aggro or die it's almost always the support team around the tanks that die to something non-boss related or some tactic (which probably involves in some form DPS) that goes wrong the 5th or 6th time doing it.

By this logic, I should be able to join a raid with a tank, (PUG or Guild, doesn't matter), and no matter how horribly I play, I can't fail. Because as you say, "It's never the tank that fails to hold aggro". I can't lose!! I'm a pro tank! I'll just go afk for a few minutes while you guys finish the fight because it doesn't matter how horribly I play (or don't)!

This just isn't true. Lack of DPS to burn down adds or burn down the boss fast enough is the key. It's never the tank that fails to hold aggro or die it's almost always the support team around the tanks that die to something non-boss related or some tactic (which probably involves in some form DPS) that goes wrong the 5th or 6th time doing it. This is primarily what PUGS talk about over on vent, why is our DPS so terrible? Do we even have enough DPS? And the old time favorite, "The DPS here sucks!" If you were ever involved in a true PUG Raid you would know this as a indisputable fact, the fact that you don't only means you never been in one of these PUG raids.

It really has nothing to do with wether the raid is a PUG or not, the facts remain the same. You must have good tanks or you won't be able to succeed.

So what if all the PUG raids you are in happen to have good tanks. That just means you PUG with good tanks.

I'm not disputing the fact that the DPS in PUG raids often suck. I'm disputing the fact that you believe the DPS is the only thing that can make or break a raid, as if tank and healer classes don't matter as they can't cause a raid to fail.

[sugarspice]

This just isn't true. Lack of DPS to burn down adds or burn down the boss fast enough is the key. It's never the tank that fails to hold aggro or die it's almost always the support team around the tanks that die to something non-boss related or some tactic (which probably involves in some form DPS) that goes wrong the 5th or 6th time doing it. This is primarily what PUGS talk about over on vent, why is our DPS so terrible? Do we even have enough DPS? And the old time favorite, "The DPS here sucks!" If you were ever involved in a true PUG Raid you would know this as a indisputable fact, the fact that you don't only means you never been in one of these PUG raids.

Necro pulls agro from bad tank, pops misdirection and poor tos has agro, tank hits goad, hold agro for three second and agro pops onto second necro who falls over dead, the boss then wrecks that tos who has no agro dumps, pops the demo .....raids wipes because all dps is dead. BAD TANKS WHO CANT HOLD AGRO WIIL RESULT IN ALL YOUR DPS BEING DEAD. Good dps is only possible when your dps can trust the tanks and of course play smart, most really good dps'er can pull if they don't play smart, BUT NO DPS CAN SURVIVE WITH BAD TANKS.

[Wabajack]

From my experience pugging into raids on American prime time, you have a few DPS who know what they are doing, and just flirt with death/test aggro a little too often... This is a good problem to have, not too hard to fix. Then you have your baddies. You know....the healers who parse below sword and board guardians... the barbs who use 2h on every fight... the rangers with half their points in general tree. Hell, I saw a full t3 demo fail to kill the add on Thoth just this weekend. Some need guidance and we should all do our part to help out, unfortunately there are a lot who are simply unteachable.