More on PvP Gear vs T4/Crafted

[SamHam]

Oh, and Suctum, I understand you might have problems killing tanks. But tell me, how easily do you eat up other classes´ hps ?

[Suctum]

Did you read the post fully? IF, for example the tanks would get bigger penalties while using frenzies, then we´d be going below 0% protection, which is retarded. And seriously? I got 49% def stanced protection. WITH the BB ring, which is NOT a part of the pvp set. Add in the protection debuff, meaning 1250 protection, which gives about 17.5% or so less protection, then another 10-15% invuls debuff, then frenzy and explain to me how u got 40% on your dt Also explain to me how -50% invuls are gonna make my conq keep 40% protection. The problem are the classes, not the stances. Brute conqs need tweaks (and preferably rerolls), carnage conqs need tweaks and some rerolls, DTs need a rebalance of VoM, while guards could need a tweak to dmg output in frenzy, given that some of their instants benefit from the extra magical dmg multiplier from frenzy.
But sure, If I could choose between todays gear (survivability) and dos gear, that´d be ok. The idea would be a rip off from tsw, but y not. I´d still go for today´s gear, as it allows a tank to tank, while for example a DT will go for dps gear and ravage you twice as hard
Edit: If there are some really strange grammatical errors in the post, then blame the auto correction on these macs

My noob guard, pvp 3 with store bought pvp gear, has 50.1 magical mitigation in def. stance. That's with chromatic warding 5/5 and all my wards at 3/5 and the black dragon cloak. If I put on my pvp 1 necklace I hit 51%, and if I change to mental I can get as high as 53%.

In frenzy with all of that I still have 29.5% magical mitigation, where as my demo usually sits around 24.2 or so. So if I had BB ring and say Ring of the Devourer and Scipio's Necklace, I am sure I would have close to 35% in frenzy if not higher.

My DT, which has no pvp armor, sits at 33.5% in def. stance with 5/5 chromatic, 5/5 in each ward, BD cloak, and 2 crafted protection rings and a full general spec protection build. I can get very close to 40% with CoI. So, if I put on a set of full pvp armor, what would be my protection? lol

A conq might have a little less due to not having any innate ability (like mental barrier on guard or CoI like DT), but come, 1% maybe 2% at the most difference?

The protection that is available with fully feated AA trees on top of what newer pve gear offers as well as the already inflated protection of pvp gear for tanks is outrageous. It's the reason t4 armor is so prevelant among casters, having that high a magic damage is the only way to combat against that kind of protection.

Seriously, how can you feel tanks have any kind of weakness even in frenzy, when you swap to reach 400-500 dps there should be a price to pay for it. If my demo gets the same debuffs in the scenario you described, guess who dies in 2 hits. If your conq gets debuffed that way, your still not going to die easily, and certainly not in 2 hits. I don't think you get risk vs. reward, you simply want reward. Btw, charging 5 people, killing one or two, bubbling, and then running away is basically what is happening on tank classes for most minis, that's what your defending.

As far as picking up flags? You ever premade, usually the flag carrier is right up there with the rest of the tanks on kills, where casters, rangers, and the off tos have very little in ways of kills compared to how many times they die.

I don't get how anyone who mains a tank could possibly not see that between the archetype that none of the tank classes really have any weaknesses concerning pvp.

[Suctum]

Oh, and Suctum, I understand you might have problems killing tanks. But tell me, how easily do you eat up other classes´ hps ?

What does that matter? I die in 2-3 combos from almost any class, so there is a balance.

[camilleboucquill]

Oh, and Suctum, I understand you might have problems killing tanks. But tell me, how easily do you eat up other classes´ hps ?

rule of thumb: if i see a dt with 10% hp left and a sin with 100% hp left ill go for the sin

which makes sense because dts are tanks, however their dmg is too high, simply

[kalston]

My noob guard, pvp 3 with store bought pvp gear, has 50.1 magical mitigation in def. stance. That's with chromatic warding 5/5 and all my wards at 3/5 and the black dragon cloak. If I put on my pvp 1 necklace I hit 51%, and if I change to mental I can get as high as 53%.

In frenzy with all of that I still have 29.5% magical mitigation, where as my demo usually sits around 24.2 or so. So if I had BB ring and say Ring of the Devourer and Scipio's Necklace, I am sure I would have close to 35% in frenzy if not higher.

My DT, which has no pvp armor, sits at 33.5% in def. stance with 5/5 chromatic, 5/5 in each ward, BD cloak, and 2 crafted protection rings and a full general spec protection build. I can get very close to 40% with CoI. So, if I put on a set of full pvp armor, what would be my protection? lol

A conq might have a little less due to not having any innate ability (like mental barrier on guard or CoI like DT), but come, 1% maybe 2% at the most difference?

Conqs got disciplines/tactics giving protection so there's really not much difference to speak of (besides the lack of shield but eh, they just released a t3.5 2hander with as much prot as a shield lol).

I'd never use chromatic warding or overly defensive accessories on a soldier though (like pvp cloak, even black dragon is better thanks to its crit damage), that's sacrificing way too much dps for a tiny extra amount of survivability.

But I do agree with what you said (and my main is a soldier with far more playtime than all my alts combined), I'm just nitpicking.

[Mysticblood]

I didn't mean to start anything by talking about defensive and frenzy, merely touching on a topic of risk vs reward. Balancing soldiers to have similar survivability as the classes they are doing the dps as (or more) is not taking away their survivability. Maybe I was a little long winded about it. One of the best features in Guild Wars 2 (yes, I am playing that until they do something about aoc pvp) is that you can obtain pvp gear based on it's intended use. If you want a tank with survivability you are probably going to fill out a set high in health and armor but those stats are trade-offs from say crit rating and dps. So my original suggestion, instead of creating all kinds of new gear to help a problem, you could simply just look at the stance dancing aspect of the archetype so it takes a little more forethought before you enter frenzy.

[SamHam]

Well sure, tanks do tend to get extremely high on protection if we add in chromatic warding (SACRIFICING 11% crit dmg and 4.5% hit rating), but as an example a conq running with will of mettle, chromatic and elusive nature is really **** on dps. You will be able to tank longer, but without OLP I doubt you'd get even one kill, unless you chase noobs in blues/greens. I still think you should balance the classes, instead of doing half assed "fixes".

[Suctum]

Well sure, tanks do tend to get extremely high on protection if we add in chromatic warding (SACRIFICING 11% crit dmg and 4.5% hit rating), but as an example a conq running with will of mettle, chromatic and elusive nature is really **** on dps. You will be able to tank longer, but without OLP I doubt you'd get even one kill, unless you chase noobs in blues/greens. I still think you should balance the classes, instead of doing half assed "fixes".

Why are you obsessed with kills? If you wanted a bunch of kills you should play a dps class. Instead, your trying to make a tank a dps class and give reasons why they should remain as they are.

Either you get a bunch of kills but die easily, are super tough to kill but do little damage, or have a bunch of utility/buffs but remain mediocre at everything else...that's called balance.

What your asking for is that tanks currently do maximum dps but still retain greater defensive capabilities while in that state. Either they fix the protection on pvp armor, add a greater debuff to frenzy, or change the time you can swap stance. I would even say change the rouge, priest, and mage general trees and add a magical penetration feat to make up the difference.

I should not have to buy in to grinding t4 pve armor over t3 pvp armor so I can give myself a high enough magic damage rating to be enough of a threat to tanks in frenzy. That's just plain stupid.

[SamHam]

Err, nope. I am asking for balancing of soldiers so that the tanks deal appropriate ammounts of dmg What you are asking for, though, seems to be t4 pve stats on t3 pvp gear dps wise.

[Suctum]

Err, nope. I am asking for balancing of soldiers so that the tanks deal appropriate ammounts of dmg What you are asking for, though, seems to be t4 pve stats on t3 pvp gear dps wise.

No, I am saying that if your a caster in full pvp gear vs. a tank in full pvp gear you deal almost no damage to them in defensive or frenzy because you lack the appropriate magic damage to penetrate that kind of resistance. As a matter of fact, in full pvp gear you deal very little damage to anyone except perhaps another clothie.

What I am saying is that pvp t2-t3 gear is not balanced by archetype, it gives the same dps values to every class and the only difference is the protection, which is heavily in favor of tanks, barbs, and shammys.

What your asking for is that tanks remain as they are 2-3 shotting most cloth and light armor classes while pretty much suffering almost no penalty, since you can easily swap def/frenzy stance every 3 seconds. The only time you can't is during a stun and KB. The community as a whole sees the problem, why can't you.

*Also, just logged in to check my AA's, and people just out of mini zoned into Khemi. I counted 7 tanks, and 2 casters with cowards shame which were there before they zoned. When everyone is playing the same archetype it usually means there is a problem...