Age of Conan stands still (no progression)

[Rathothis]

And it is. if by "PvP content" you mean ridiculous combat powerups that only serve to reinforce the barriers to entry and make new players quit in disgust.

What Joel meant was coding work. And I guess your idea of factions (which I like) would involve a lot of coding work. Apparently, FC have the tools to create PvE content, so all they need to do is to create some graphical / animation assets and scripts and there you go. But they don't have the coders to implement deep changes to the way PvP works. Sad but true.

Here's Joel's post:
http://forums.ageofconan.com/showpos...2&postcount=10

[Aell]

I guess what it comes down to is this -

Do we accept that this game will stay a grindfest that hates new players and drives veterans away through boredom or do we point out the issues and hope that somebody notices?

If the former, I'd say this game has maybe two years life left on just one server with a couple of hundred players who feel that they've "earned" so much that they'll never quit until the game shuts down, which it will.

Not much to hope for, in a game that actually has the foundations to be niche, yes, but fun fast-paced easy-in violent game is a pretty big niche.

To judge from those who hung on to 1.05 and past, a niche maybe 500,000 strong, which is good money for Funcom.

"Aging fake Korean grinder" appears to be a much, much smaller niche, one that is shrinking by the day.

[Rathothis]

Do we accept that this game will stay a grindfest that hates new players and drives veterans away through boredom or do we point out the issues and hope that somebody notices?

We can point out all we like, but we don't decide what is feasible and what isn't. In my view, as a player but also from a business perspective, FC have been too conservative in investing in AoC. But that was simply the consequence of them betting on another game, and we all know how that turned out.

Now as to your ideas re PvP factions:

Yes, factions are a good idea. Sure there's some details to think about (e.g.: how to give people an incentive to fight, rather than to fight-club), but they generally work well in MMOs.

The real issue isn't those details. The real issue is AoC's unique selling point. A lot of MMOs have factions. Some even have an action-oriented combat system. Most have a larger player base. How do you sell to PvP focused players that AoC really is the game which they should be playing, now, more than 5 years after release?

There's two answers:

1. The combo system, which I still find superior e.g. to GW2's mechanics... but then I am a carebear and quite a few PvPers seem to disagree;

2. The setting. But the setting isn't about PvP systems - it's all about game art. I for one love AoC's art direction, but let's face it, some textures would really need a facelift for the game to appeal to new players. Which requires precisely the kind of work which you want FC to avoid.

[Aell]

The USP in this case comes from "easy-in huge fun". A two line review from Scott "Lum the Mad" Jennings went along the lines of (I'm paraphrasing...)

It's a bit broken, gems are a disaster, class balance is way out of whack but it's quick and combos are fun and I WAS SETTING PEOPLE ON ACTUAL FIRE WITH FLAMES

The USP of Age of Conan is that it's fun and combos are a big part of that.

There is a problem in that mages/priests are deliberately easymode and that gives them such an advantage in PvP they have to be deliberately gimped to level the playing field.

Seriously, the first step for any GD on taking over a game should be to look at what people spend gold on.

Assume that goldsellers exist and that people will buy gold to avoid the hellish parts of the game. Those hellish parts are the bits that aren't fun. The thing about a game is that you want to find all the bits that aren't fun and then kill them with fire, sack the designer who came up with them and get somebody who did one of the fun parts to do a redesign.

Anything in your game so bad that people will pay real money to avoid doing it is a problem. First, we kill all the lawyers. Then we take out all the shítty bits.

As for

How do you sell to PvP focused players that AoC really is the game which they should be playing, now, more than 5 years after release?

We don't sell. We show. We take out the grind, kill the uberl33t gearz, level the playing field and let them actually compete. Unless this is done, they're looking at months of grinding before they stand the barest hope in hell. Nobody's going to sign up for that.

But easy-in with public league tables that show exactly who's the baddest badass in Hyboria? Yeah. That'd get 'em. Slowly to start with but it would build.

[Thizon]

I wouldn't say gw2 succesfull..

Just the fastest selling mmo in history. Crowded servers with waiting time to get into wvw on prime time and more people in one of the four cities than i ever have seen in OT, during my time in aoc and i been around since prerelease until GW2 was released.

Its actually extremely successful, its even so successful so that they seem postponed the expansion since there is no financial need for it.

Still hovering the forums here to see if something interesting is gonna happen which gives me a reason to return, unfortunately it seems that its in vain.

Frankly the game has no hope atm to grow bigger. I was one of the die hard fans of the pvp but tbh its slow and to simple to drag in players en masse. Even though the combo system is there it need a major overhaul to even come close to the likes of GW2 that has combos and also cross profession combos which makes it much more complex but still easier to play.

Sadly i think the point of no return for pvp as an usp has passed and even if they make it competitive again (not about gear and AA) the product is old and frankly stale. I logged in yesterday, all fired up by this thread, and i logged out after one minigame since i just couldnt find the immerison in a game that makes you stand still to do combos or use abilities and that doesnt have a working active system for evading.

I think FC does the right thing here, the same as they have done since the release of rotgs, milking the game as long as they can and use the revenues to find new ways of saving the company. Conan isnt the saviour it could have been, not any more.

[Rathothis]

First, we kill all the lawyers.

Damn, you got me there.

As to selling the game to PvPers, sadly, I think Brutaly has it right:

Sadly i think the point of no return for pvp as an usp has passed and even if they make it competitive again (not about gear and AA) the product is old and frankly stale. I logged in yesterday, all fired up by this thread, and i logged out after one minigame since i just couldnt find the immerison in a game that makes you stand still to do combos or use abilities and that doesnt have a working active system for evading.

I never got into GW2, mostly because of the art design (something I care about) and because all of the potential arising from cross-class combos require a time investment I wasn't ready to make. But compared to a time investment in grinding rocks and trees to compete, GW2's proposal probably is superior to customers with a PvP mindset.

The only thing I disagree with is this:

I think FC does the right thing here, the same as they have done since the release of rotgs, milking the game as long as they can and use the revenues to find new ways of saving the company. Conan isnt the saviour it could have been, not any more.

As evidently they couldn't have spent the money AoC made them any worse than they did.

[Aell]

Who stands still? Okay you stand still for a finisher but you move during the steps. Also, LoS works, obstacles work, there is no clipping through other characters and hitboxes are not always as immense as they are with a polearm.

And it's not just a "push on button and stuff happens" affair. I'd say that given some balance, PvP using the combo system is still a really fun challenge.

[Thizon]

I never got into GW2, mostly because of the art design (something I care about) and because all of the potential arising from cross-class combos require a time investment I wasn't ready to make. But compared to a time investment in grinding rocks and trees to compete, GW2's proposal probably is superior to customers with a PvP mindset.

The only thing I disagree with is this:

As evidently they couldn't have spent the money AoC made them any worse than they did.

Well i dont like the art either but as a game (systems) its superior and i dont think art alone is enough to bring people back and i think FC knows that as well.

We dont disagree at all, i think they probably have made all the wrong choices possible. What i ment is that in the postion they are now they dont have any other choice (realistic at least) than milking AoC and try to survive.

Who stands still? Okay you stand still for a finisher but you move during the steps. Also, LoS works, obstacles work, there is no clipping through other characters and hitboxes are not always as immense as they are with a polearm.

And it's not just a "push on button and stuff happens" affair. I'd say that given some balance, PvP using the combo system is still a really fun challenge.

The majority of skills that has any actual impact (finishers and spells) makes you freeze in place. presteps are presteps with very little impact. In the game that are around now this is just a no go.

Or a los system that actually make you hit stuff that arent in range. The games around now will make you miss when something actually is out of range and combine that with the ability to move while hitting as a compensation. The combat system was innovative when it came but now there is a bunch of better iterations out there.

And an active system based on skill to avoid damage, this is just something AoC needs if they want to compete with gw2 or why not The Division where avoidance seem to be a completely new level.

I agree the combosystem is challenging and fun but the problem is that they place complexity in basic skill instead of in skills that has major synergies. This creates a game with a high entry level and a low skill cap. Doing it the other way, low entry level and high skill cap is the smart thing to do.

Minutes to learn and years to master instead of months to learn and one more month to master. The combosystem is also in place in other games but refined.

If we compare with gw2 its not just to push a button, in gw (melee) you need to calculate for both the start of the attack and the finish due to how los, range and dodge works. In aoc you only need to calculate for the start since the los/range check is only in the first hit and some bubbles cant even interupt the effect of the combofinisher.

Tbh i will probably come back when the new minigames (unchained) arrive but thinkning that this game will have a huge influx of players based on that and pvp improvements is kind of naive.

[cins]

They did make a fully mobile system with avoidance by movement, where doing things doesn't root you in place. The result was the floaty, weightless balloon race called Secret World. So no, you stand your ground and concentrate on the thing you're doing if you want to have any sense of weight to your combat.

Also pvp is stillborn in every MMORPG out there. Let it go. There are whole other genres of games focused on doing pvp right.