Casper, the Content Ghost

[Kurt2013]

Because i don't count those people grinding yag, the majority of players (though from global and certain guilds activity, you might get the impression). If you disagree, there is good chance we both be wrong since even for funcom analyzing the player activity is probably not easy.

For those Yaggites you are certainly right...and i don't say the new instance is a bad one or could not be fun. I just wanted to express my concern that it will be for a limited audience like temple of erlik, ardashir fort, breach unchained, house of crom, chosain mines etc.. I don't care about loot, i want it to be fun (which is highly subjective...again proving my point that one or two more pve instances following same system design like the other younger ones will not save anything, even if they are a nice addition).

If it keeps the endgame pve crowd happy for a few more weeks, fine with me. It just angers me, that with that (and for other reasons i can't mention here) easy to do stuff gets neglected and postphoned.

I have nothing against the instance, it is perfectly fine for them to finish what they started in 2012. Just be realistic and don't forget the problems and overall progression curve (including alternate gamestyles like rp and pvp) with all the hype.

[Chillee]

Because i don't count those people grinding yag, the majority of players.

For those you are certainly right...and i don't say it is a bad instance or could not be fun. I just wanted to express my concern that it will be for a limited audience like temple of erlik, ardashir fort, breach unchained, house of crom, chosain mines etc.

If it keeps the endgame pve crowd happy for a few more weeks, fine with me. It just angers me, that with that (and for other reasons i can't mention here) easy to do stuff gets neglected and postphoned.

I have nothing against the instance, it is perfectly fine for them to finish what they started in 2012. Just be realistic and don't forget the problems and overall progression curve (including alternate gamestyles like rp and pvp) with all the hype.

Are you sure you're talking about AOC? 6 monkeys banging cymbals together could do HOC. Don't really understand where you're coming from.

Hopefully they'll get the new minimap and crafting out soon. Don't think anyone disagrees with FCs failure in that regard.

[Kurt2013]

Sorry, that is simply not true. One good tank, medium healer and one good dps can help the others run through it, sure. But even 6 monkeys with cymbals would have to grind their way to the power level. If you don't believe me, try doing House of Crom with a complete group of new players just turned premium (e.g. with Atzel gear or similar).

Even the mechanics (unless you link them by script) are not that easy to figure out (with common sense at least, try and error works most of the time). Add to that the average grinders wipe tolerance, i still keep to my statement, that House of Crom is not available for the majority of chars. And if i want to take you serious, there must be a serious gap in perception and power somewhere.

Give me an editor for AoC anyway similar to Aurora and i make you at least 5 minimaps and 3 new types of minigame rulesets in a week maximum. For new minis it might even be enough to copy/paste existing maps...add some spawn points and let the deathmatch or capture the hill commence...

Don't even get me started about crafting ...

[bruceleroy]

Sorry, that is simply not true. One good tank, medium healer and one good dps can help the others run through it, sure. But even 6 monkeys with cymbals would have to grind their way to the power level. If you don't believe me, try doing House of Crom with a complete group of new players just turned premium (e.g. with Atzel gear or similar).

Even the mechanics (unless you link them by script) are not that easy to figure out (with common sense at least, try and error works most of the time). Add to that the average grinders wipe tolerance, i still keep to my statement, that House of Crom is not available for the majority of chars. And if i want to take you serious, there must be a serious gap in perception and power somewhere.

Give me an editor for AoC anyway similar to Aurora and i make you at least 5 minimaps and 3 new types of minigame rulesets in a week maximum. For new minis it might even be enough to copy/paste existing maps...add some spawn points and let the deathmatch or capture the hill commence...

Don't even get me started about crafting ...

Level headed mature responses I like. But you are only looking at it from your pov. Try from a pvper pov. Or try from this game has been out for how long, so how many times can one do the same over and over... Or 6 months and nothing new? A new GM and nothing new? Looks like the game is abandoned minus one dev writing a 6 man that will contain new loot for pvers who want to pvp.

[Chillee]

Sorry, that is simply not true. One good tank, medium healer and one good dps can help the others run through it, sure. But even 6 monkeys with cymbals would have to grind their way to the power level. If you don't believe me, try doing House of Crom with a complete group of new players just turned premium (e.g. with Atzel gear or similar).

Even the mechanics (unless you link them by script) are not that easy to figure out (with common sense at least, try and error works most of the time). Add to that the average grinders wipe tolerance, i still keep to my statement, that House of Crom is not available for the majority of chars. And if i want to take you serious, there must be a serious gap in perception and power somewhere.

Give me an editor for AoC anyway similar to Aurora and i make you at least 5 minimaps and 3 new types of minigame rulesets in a week maximum. For new minis it might even be enough to copy/paste existing maps...add some spawn points and let the deathmatch or capture the hill commence...

Don't even get me started about crafting ...

The mechanics are painfully easy. Easier than the destiny quests. If they have atzel/onyx/epic khesh gear and a little time to invest, it isn't hard at all. It can be tanked/dps/healed in blue level 80 gear, I've done it. And if they can't figure out the strat, they can google it.

HOC was made for nub players to learn how to group and pick up rares while doing it, and your response is it's too hard. I'd be interested to see how many people actually agree with you who aren't fresh 80s new to the game from Steam. I'd say most players who aren't brand new to the game would laugh at what you're claiming.

And what is the point of making new content for players who can't do any of the mountain of fresh 80 content already available? These players already have HOC to figure out. They could spend hours in Onyx. A dozen bosses in Atzel Fortress plus the hall of frost. Several level 80 dungeons that can be done in blue gear. There's a T1/W1 pug going almost every night. There is enough content to keep a brand new player busy for months on end.

Really don't understand anyone asking for more content for nub 80s when the game is already filled to the brim with it.

[Kurt2013]

I don't doubt that it can be done with blue geared in the right combination. But you already mentioned it: IF they have time, are willing to google or learn and (added by me) have luck and the right combination.

I don't disagree that it might be designed for these players...but i still think it failed short. Standard mobs two shotting blue geared players (before they can cc) once they get aggro is not my definition of "easy" or "nub" instance.
But we should not discuss or get too hooked on an instance i just mentioned as one example, should we?

As mentioned already, i am sure there are enough new players to agree with me, but i don't rule out others agree with you. That's because with the right class combination with the right feat builds a 6 ppl group has a lot of options per definition (and while i believe your char was low geared probably, i simply doubt this counts for everyone in your group (especially tank and healer)) or that you were new to the instance (more likely you knew what to expect and tried a challenge with some preparation). Just because it is possible for some who see it as a challenge does not mean it is easily doable as standard.
And if those players you mention laugh...it only shows how detached they already are from their beginnings and how perception varies

Of course they could do this or that...but i am looking at the game and see what they do (or rather not do). My fear is just, that it is not by choice, but rather by design and population distribution. Here i keep saying, more and more linear content addons do not help.

Sure, on paper it might look exactly as you say. I am not denying there are already many 80s dungeons, with lots of different difficulties. But imo they are not balanced well in terms of accessability, time needed to find a group, time needed to play it through, wipe danger, time sinkishness, requirements to make it easier, mandatory requirements, rewards, replay factor, tactical variety etc.. Imo, it will pay out to adress these things first (at least for evaluation, bugfix or loot balance). Mostly no full revamps are necessary, but rather small tweaks or changing of a few scaling variables.

And what is the point of making new content for players who can't do any of the mountain of fresh 80 content already available? These players already have HOC to figure out. They could spend hours in Onyx. A dozen bosses in Atzel Fortress plus the hall of frost. Several level 80 dungeons that can be done in blue gear. There's a T1/W1 pug going almost every night. There is enough content to keep a brand new player busy for months on end.

I think i kind of meant something like this when i talked about the majority. If you assume there is this kind of progression (level to 80, old world, hoc and factions, normal modes, hard modes and the according raids), then again i find it very unlikely that any new instance at endgame would be catering the majority. I simply see too many new players than old friends and veterans online (and not because it's summer) for that. Of course there need to be something new at that range, but as sole development i think the hype will backfire (i know there is crafting revamp (risky and postphoned to an unknown date with unknown features) and unchained minis (good, but probably just a minor addition compared to other pvp issues, depending on how they finally do them) and oneserver tech (probably one server for the whole world)).

But let me keep in your argumentation chain:
When there is so much 80 content already for new players to do and learn in...how attractive do you think a new 6ppl instance situated somewhere in between tier2 and tier3,5 is? And how do they feel, when they try to go there (assuming it will be popular or even mandatory lootwise for some)? What will be the chances for people considered unexperienced and undergeared to even see these new stuff?

[Mellaus]

Even though i believe Dragon Spine is great, and once all the dungeons and raid implemented it will be an awesome place, i would rather see some work done on the lower level play fields.

I mean, when you look at the beginning of the game and the later content, it's like 2 different games.

As said, there are already so many high level dungeons and raids, i don't think more power escalation, being in terms of gear or AA, will bring anything positive to the game, apart from pleasing grumpy veterans, who will keep bitching no matter what.

Imo, some polishing on wild land of Zelata and khopshef province wouldn't hurt.

[Chillee]

But let me keep in your argumentation chain:
When there is so much 80 content already for new players to do and learn in...how attractive do you think a new 6ppl instance situated somewhere in between tier2 and tier3,5 is? And how do they feel, when they try to go there (assuming it will be popular or even mandatory lootwise for some)? What will be the chances for people considered unexperienced and undergeared to even see these new stuff?

2 shotted? A tank in decent blue/t1 gear gets 2 shotted there (unless it's because of failing a mechanic, like the alchemist), then he's probably in frenzy and doesn't even understand his stances. Few mobs in there hit that hard. As easy as it is to get t1 gear now, the only players who don't have gear adequate for HOC are those that don't play. There are daily T1/W1 pugs they can do in a few hours a week to gear up in no time.

What more could be done for fresh 80s and low levels? Those players already have a huge number of dungeons that are never even touched. Main system is almost a raid and no one ever goes in there, in spite of it being fun and accessible to almost everyone. So is SOBS. The lvl 60 version of Amp used to be a great dungeon. Who cares if the new people can do the new dungeon? The attractiveness of DS dungeons to someone who downloaded the game from Steam a month ago is irrelevant. They already have dozens of places to see new content. They can load up on Atzel/Onyx gear and then go to Xibaluku and enjoy one of the best looking and most fun dungeons in an MMO ever.

You might say they can't get a group for Xib. So join a freaking active guild!!! There are still several of them, and even many veterans have undergeared toons they would probably take to places with steam players, and even the most nubbish of guilds goes to HOC to farm rares and won't mind a nub or 2 tagging along.

The problem is, like almost all MMOs, AOC has become a race to get to endgame content. And most players get there and find out that sitting on a tent in DMC while your buddy nukes mobs on his necro has left them with no clue how to play their toons once they get to level 80 and are asked to do something in a raid other than spam a heal or whatever.

Can't argue that they shouldn't be cleaning up other aspects of the game, because they clearly should be and should have already. But asking FC to dumb-down the game so that it will just be a walk through sight seeing tour will finish off whats left of the population.

New content for vets is critical. We're the ones paying the bills for the game, which FC has noted is cashflow positive. The other two keys are cleaning up what they already have, and perhaps most important of all, get the crafting revamp out. IMO, that will bring old players back and reinvigorate bored vets as well. But doing much with old content, other than polishing the stains, is a waste of time.

[Kurt2013]

...
The problem is, like almost all MMOs, AOC has become a race to get to endgame content. ...

And that was exactly a point i criticised.
Why do players do that and what about the people who don't rush to the endgame content?

Not arguing against new content for vets. Not asking to dumb things down.

Just asking for new content with a broader approach at the whole game, more flexibility and a better quota of progression/time invested (independant of gamestyle, i KNOW it can be quite fast if you specialize on it, but it also can be ZERO, if you don't make certain concessions).

It all comes down on "how" you do it. This can be done in various ways...but adding only on top is not a successfull way (just look at other mmos too, especially if you are low on devpower).

All your points about dungeons available for vets are good, but imo for longevity and a healthy game, there NEEDS to be mingling...e.g. new players should not only be friends with new players (vice versa for vets) and the progression curve is NOT as smooth as you (and others) make it appear to be. PvP if done well can offer something there, rp per definition is not noob or vet dependant. Crafting, collecting and gathering as well as economy can bring in something here too. Guilds are also a good way to mingle, but to be honest, most of my friends i got through pvp, rp and instance runs (the old kind, not the new anonymous way). Also if you expect new players to rush through (or be rushed through), i would say this will be a one sided "partnership" which will not lead to longterm success probably.