SUGGESTION: PVP Mini Games

[bruceleroy]

Problem: Minigames are incredibly lopsided, where one team has an advantage either because of class breakdown or pvp levels. This causes frustration on players after 2 or 3 in a row, and players will stop signing up.

Suggestions:

1. Perform team balance with 5 seconds left. Not at the start of the countdown.

2. Take in to consideration the pvp levels. Too often one team has 4 pvp 10s, and the other doesnt have a player over pvp 3. Saw this twice yesterday.

3. Consider more mini game styles. Add a team deathmatch where everyone has one life, or a capture the points style map. Reference fps for additional ideas.

4. Consider a few new maps.

[Harmonium]

Problem: Minigames are incredibly lopsided, where one team has an advantage either because of class breakdown or pvp levels. This causes frustration on players after 2 or 3 in a row, and players will stop signing up.

Suggestions:

1. Perform team balance with 5 seconds left. Not at the start of the countdown.

2. Take in to consideration the pvp levels. Too often one team has 4 pvp 10s, and the other doesnt have a player over pvp 3. Saw this twice yesterday.

3. Consider more mini game styles. Add a team deathmatch where everyone has one life, or a capture the points style map. Reference fps for additional ideas.

4. Consider a few new maps.

A team with full t4 pvp 0 against a team pvp 10, the pvp 10 are less stronger.

so what you say mean nothing, i see some demo full t4 and pvp 2. And they are so OP.

What we need is an equality pvp stuff for everyone without any rank, so everyone can pvp, and be equal to everyone, in mini, and in open pvp.

But that will never be, i have stop dream about an equality system, the stronger will be stronger, and the weak will be weak.

[bruceleroy]

A team with full t4 pvp 0 against a team pvp 10, the pvp 10 are less stronger.

so what you say mean nothing, i see some demo full t4 and pvp 2. And they are so OP.

What we need is an equality pvp stuff for everyone without any rank, so everyone can pvp, and be equal to everyone, in mini, and in open pvp.

But that will never be, i have stop dream about an equality system, the stronger will be stronger, and the weak will be weak.

You are asking for the same thing I am, but with a different way to get there. I think what you ask for is a lot of work, what I ask for is possible. I also think you responded with a lot of emotion, which should demonstrate to Funcom the level of frsutration on the part of the players and has to start taking PVP more seriously, regardless of the approach.

btw, i kill t4 demos on my pvp 2 ranger all the time. So what I say does mean something. You should be so rude to people posting ideas.

[Chaman-bourru]

Promised myself i would stop lurking around PvP forums but... couldn't resist.

So ...

I don't believe the issues minis have are balance related. Most minis don't turn to bad because groupes are unbalanced on paper but because of players. Two major things, in my opinion, spoils minis:

- Players giving up so easily. (By that i mean leaving or giving up on flags or giving up on the team and playing alone or hiding only poping out when it seems safe, etc.)
- Players from the same guild not fighting each others.

Solving mini-game issues by sharpening the balance algorithms or tuning down gear problemes doesn't convince me much. I'm not saying it's fundamently wrong to do it, but it's a waste of time if you ask me. The problem isn't balance, it's PuG. Balance gear as much as you like, balance groupes as much as you like. At the end of the day you'll still have issues. Because players even with equal gear and equal teams don't have equal skill. Because players even with equal gear and equal teams dont have equal aims.

Authorizing groupe sign ups had it's limits. But PuG sign ups only has it's limits too. With PuG sign-ups it's more unlikely to end with a team fighting against the odds. This is, i believe, the core question of PvP in pug mini-games: How do you make players fight against the odds in a Pick up groupe ?
I don't have an answer to that, or at least no satisfying one, but i'm convinced of this: equality, balance, fairness is a myth. I wish UNCHAINED minis will prove me wrong, but i doubt players will suddenly discover themselves a spine there.

[Riamis]

Promised myself i would stop lurking around PvP forums but... couldn't resist.

So ...

I don't believe the issues minis have are balance related. Most minis don't turn to bad because groupes are unbalanced on paper but because of players. Two major things, in my opinion, spoils minis:

- Players giving up so easily. (By that i mean leaving or giving up on flags or giving up on the team and playing alone or hiding only poping out when it seems safe, etc.)
- Players from the same guild not fighting each others.

Solving mini-game issues by sharpening the balance algorithms or tuning down gear problemes doesn't convince me much. I'm not saying it's fundamently wrong to do it, but it's a waste of time if you ask me. The problem isn't balance, it's PuG. Balance gear as much as you like, balance groupes as much as you like. At the end of the day you'll still have issues. Because players even with equal gear and equal teams don't have equal skill. Because players even with equal gear and equal teams dont have equal aims.

Authorizing groupe sign ups had it's limits. But PuG sign ups only has it's limits too. With PuG sign-ups it's more unlikely to end with a team fighting against the odds. This is, i believe, the core question of PvP in pug mini-games: How do you make players fight against the odds in a Pick up groupe ?
I don't have an answer to that, or at least no satisfying one, but i'm convinced of this: equality, balance, fairness is a myth. I wish UNCHAINED minis will prove me wrong, but i doubt players will suddenly discover themselves a spine there.

Best comment ever. Agree 100%. Adding latency as well, maybe one player have a good latency and another bad latency, or you are tired, or you push bad button IT can't be balanced never.

My suggestion for FC, take time , make lvl 90 and then change all system at the end of game, don't know what, but...try it

[bruceleroy]

Promised myself i would stop lurking around PvP forums but... couldn't resist.

So ...

I don't believe the issues minis have are balance related. Most minis don't turn to bad because groupes are unbalanced on paper but because of players. Two major things, in my opinion, spoils minis:

- Players giving up so easily. (By that i mean leaving or giving up on flags or giving up on the team and playing alone or hiding only poping out when it seems safe, etc.)
- Players from the same guild not fighting each others.

Solving mini-game issues by sharpening the balance algorithms or tuning down gear problemes doesn't convince me much. I'm not saying it's fundamently wrong to do it, but it's a waste of time if you ask me. The problem isn't balance, it's PuG. Balance gear as much as you like, balance groupes as much as you like. At the end of the day you'll still have issues. Because players even with equal gear and equal teams don't have equal skill. Because players even with equal gear and equal teams dont have equal aims.

Authorizing groupe sign ups had it's limits. But PuG sign ups only has it's limits too. With PuG sign-ups it's more unlikely to end with a team fighting against the odds. This is, i believe, the core question of PvP in pug mini-games: How do you make players fight against the odds in a Pick up groupe ?
I don't have an answer to that, or at least no satisfying one, but i'm convinced of this: equality, balance, fairness is a myth. I wish UNCHAINED minis will prove me wrong, but i doubt players will suddenly discover themselves a spine there.

In the US its players giving up because of poor balance.

I havent seen players in the same guild not attack on Tyranny. This is a good thing, so thats definetly going to be an issue on merge. I can see US players getting really frustrated with EU if this is the case. Hopefully sparking Premades.

Its like EU and US have so different issues that I cannot wait to see when we combine them, the attitudes that will come will be one giant super attitude that will consume the game, and the poor GM will never have a chance, unless he comes through prior to merge.

[Audrey-]

1. Perform team balance with 5 seconds left. Not at the start of the countdown.

3. Consider more mini game styles. Add a team deathmatch where everyone has one life, or a capture the points style map. Reference fps for additional ideas.

4. Consider a few new maps.

Point 1 is strong . Also something should be done about JS raid setup... eg: I see 4 priests divided 2-2 in the groups , suddenly a huge invisible vaccum cleaner appears from nowhere and repositions ALL 4 priests in one group... Same with conqs...
I'm faraway from a programmer , but i can think of very simple algorythms for such issues... like "if X , put X in grp 1 , given that player1 =/= X , player2 =/= X , .., player6 =/= X . Otherwise put X in grp 2"

Points 3 & 4 are common demands of all pvp crowd . While some might produce thoughts with a kinda cyclic logic ,like "If nothing arrives , then nothing arrived" ,, Some others act according to a less cyclic model , like "if nothing arrived , then its time to depart"

[Harmonium]

Well me i am tired to hear the same thing, gear don't count, only skill do.

When i attack a demo in pvp stuff and i see he take good damage, and when i do the same on a t4 one he is like a tank, i don't dream, this is mathematic, you need see the stat, even t3.5 are strongly better than pvp stuff.

A new player against t4 guys is nothing than a little pet who try hit a god.

If you get in a team, 2 guys in blue stuff just hit 80, and in face some guys with full t4, you will be farm to rez, and can't do anything.

We must maybe stop say all the same thing everytime, this is the truth what i said, and this is just horrible for a pvp game, the gear count so much, lot of game gear don't count, and the pvp is very nice, because we are all in equality, after talking about lag and other thing this is ok, but don't forget the main problem.

Who are Gear, AA.

Are you even see the t4 gear already ? Did you see the power ? From ring, cloak, necklace, weapon ? Are you see the big gap between pvp stuff from t4 ? So if nothing change, lot of guys will quit (and they are already).

I know unchained mini will be nice for everyone, i am good with it and i am happy to see them come, but that change nothing in open pvp, and not sure people who farm t4 will do unchained mini, after all, they will lost those super power, so i am sure they don't want lost it, they pve for be a god, against people who don't / can't pve, to get those awesome stuff.

Seriously i go so often in test live, to see those stuff, and this is crazy the difference of the t3.5 stuff and my pvp stuff.

But i am sure nothing will be done, this is too late now, we all know more AA will come, for create another gap between veteran player against new player / return player.

Something need be done, but i know we are an minority who play pvp all day etc, so nothing will be done... maybe a t5 stuff will be add someday.

[Audrey-]

Harmonium , it's only the players of Fury and Tyranny complaining of T4 opness .
Rest serves actually have enough guilds to raid T4 , so T4 is not something OMG-DIVINE . It's in the game and ppl have access to it!
But yes , on our server , the 68+1 people who managed to get T4 have clear advantage . This is no new story im afraid . Same happened when t3 popped up etc etc , but now only 3(4?) guilds do run t4.

About T4 casters now... I think most people litteraly 5H1T their pants when they see a green gremlin running around . My question is : WHY?
They(we!) got more dps and more const , that's for sure , But said byebye to their nice protections from SC cloth and their super nice protections/tenacity from pVpT2-T3 cloth set , so they're vulnerable!
Jump them , debuff them , make them your personal kd-booster is my advice. My r3 dt has lots of fun with 90% of green gremlins . Ofcourse when u meet guys like Zorka or Occultiste , who have deep knowledge of their classes' potential , then the story can be different ^^

[Harmonium]

Harmonium , it's only the players of Fury and Tyranny complaining of T4 opness .
Rest serves actually have enough guilds to raid T4 , so T4 is not something OMG-DIVINE . It's in the game and ppl have access to it!
But yes , on our server , the 68+1 people who managed to get T4 have clear advantage . This is no new story im afraid . Same happened when t3 popped up etc etc , but now only 3(4?) guilds do run t4.

About T4 casters now... I think most people litteraly 5H1T their pants when they see a green gremlin running around . My question is : WHY?
They(we!) got more dps and more const , that's for sure , But said byebye to their nice protections from SC cloth and their super nice protections/tenacity from pVpT2-T3 cloth set , so they're vulnerable!
Jump them , debuff them , make them your personal kd-booster is my advice. My r3 dt has lots of fun with 90% of green gremlins . Ofcourse when u meet guys like Zorka or Occultiste , who have deep knowledge of their classes' potential , then the story can be different ^^

Well yes and no, you said we need do t4 for pvp.

Because i have "no choice" sorry, but i don't want pve for pvp, but the game don't give me choice, if i want be equal, but i have two choice now.

1 : Do t4
2 : Quit the game

i wait a little but i think my decision is taken, because of those gear gap, the game is nice, i play since 2008 with some break, but the game is now only gear count, this is so bad.

They should give to everyone a t4 pvp stuff who work only in mini and open area, the stuff will not work in dungeon and pve.

Or two panel, one pvp, one pve.

But that will never be.

Oh and for answer you, with my dt too i have lot of gun when i meet "normal guys" its look like i play a cool game, but when i meet a "terminator" then i want quit the game immediately because of the stupid gear gap.

And even more when i right click someone and see the awesome stuff he got and weapon t4, when i look my stuff i am so crap.