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Thread: Agro

  1. #21

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    I don't really care if I'm on top of aggro list or not, though I'm not one of those guards who get locked out (except when other tanks have much better gear than me but then that's got nothing to do with skill or class balance anyway), there's goad and forced engage in those situations where you really lag behind. IMO tanks should never "hold back" but just fight as hard as possible for aggro constantly. In my experience, whenever a tank starts holding back because the aggro gap is big, there's a big chance that you'll see the top dpsers getting aggro because they saw they could keep on pushing more and more.

    Of course it's not always easy to have perfectly balanced aggro with tanks that don't even need to use goad/FE to switch. But gear and AA matter so much in this game, what can you do?

    Now as for dps yes guards are behind other tanks and yes conqs are monster tanks now (but I don't know if they have more aggro than guard/dt though, not a lot of tanking conqs on Fury and most of them are not too good tbh)
    Expert Shield of the Risen opener.

  2. #22

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    I prefer fast aggro rotation completely without Goad.

    Player experience reason is, it's much more interesting than just pseudo-dps-ing, and pressing a 100%-aggro-switch button every 30 secs or what the cooldown is. Always considered this dull. I liked the time best, when Goad was ignored by many bosses and on long CD.

    Of course this requires a much finer awareness of the situation and teamplay with fellow tanks. It allows tanks to shine, as tanks, not as pseudo-dps.

    Second reason, why I prefer the tanks in my raid to practice aggro switches without Goad, is, it prepares them for situations where Bosses hit so hard, that even the 30s CD is way too long to tank - then goaders tend to fail. Of course I know there aren't really such encounters nowadays for endgame tanks, as T4 is too easy to tank and T4 gear too powerful.

    Still I hope for the future for more tank-skill demanding encounter as in older days, when fast rotations of approx 3-4 tanks really made sense. Much more intense tanking experience than Goad-dpsdpsdps-waitwaitwait-Goad-dpsdpsdps-waitwaitwait...

    My view.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by kalston View Post
    I don't really care if I'm on top of aggro list or not, though I'm not one of those guards who get locked out (except when other tanks have much better gear than me but then that's got nothing to do with skill or class balance anyway), there's goad and forced engage in those situations where you really lag behind. IMO tanks should never "hold back" but just fight as hard as possible for aggro constantly. In my experience, whenever a tank starts holding back because the aggro gap is big, there's a big chance that you'll see the top dpsers getting aggro because they saw they could keep on pushing more and more.

    Of course it's not always easy to have perfectly balanced aggro with tanks that don't even need to use goad/FE to switch. But gear and AA matter so much in this game, what can you do?

    Now as for dps yes guards are behind other tanks and yes conqs are monster tanks now (but I don't know if they have more aggro than guard/dt though, not a lot of tanking conqs on Fury and most of them are not too good tbh)
    Isn't that just what I said? It doesn't make any sense to blow everything when you can't get the agro worth a damn and you just said about not using goad and FE unless it's to prevent a tank death... it's so tiring to see the goad debuff appear on a boss when you can see the tank holding agro isn't dying or needing to switch it off them and the boss doesn't switch to someone else on top of it.

    A tank groups agro holding ability isn't set by the top tank, it's set by what the lowest agro threat tank that's part of the rotation can generate, the weakest link in the chain determines how strong the chain is.

    Regarding tanking Conqs... depends on the player but I think the Conq is capable of generating threat over the variety of bosses, they can run with either a guard or DT where both of those classes shine in certain situations the Conq is there with them for both and able to generate equal threat. The difference is gear and the player rather than just being the class difference in threat generation. Personally I think it's hardest to tank with a Conq and easiest with a Guard hence the lack of tanking Conqs, but that's just my opinion.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlekin View Post
    I prefer fast aggro rotation completely without Goad.

    Player experience reason is, it's much more interesting than just pseudo-dps-ing, and pressing a 100%-aggro-switch button every 30 secs or what the cooldown is. Always considered this dull. I liked the time best, when Goad was ignored by many bosses and on long CD.

    Of course this requires a much finer awareness of the situation and teamplay with fellow tanks. It allows tanks to shine, as tanks, not as pseudo-dps.

    Second reason, why I prefer the tanks in my raid to practice aggro switches without Goad, is, it prepares them for situations where Bosses hit so hard, that even the 30s CD is way too long to tank - then goaders tend to fail. Of course I know there aren't really such encounters nowadays for endgame tanks, as T4 is too easy to tank and T4 gear too powerful.

    Still I hope for the future for more tank-skill demanding encounter as in older days, when fast rotations of approx 3-4 tanks really made sense. Much more intense tanking experience than Goad-dpsdpsdps-waitwaitwait-Goad-dpsdpsdps-waitwaitwait...

    My view.
    I agree with your view 100% and everyone should tbh But with the impact of gear and AA Goad and FE are important otherwise you need all your tanks to be similarly geared and stuff (or you have the better equipped tanks holding back, which I don't like at all).
    Expert Shield of the Risen opener.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlekin View Post
    I prefer fast aggro rotation completely without Goad.

    Player experience reason is, it's much more interesting than just pseudo-dps-ing, and pressing a 100%-aggro-switch button every 30 secs or what the cooldown is. Always considered this dull. I liked the time best, when Goad was ignored by many bosses and on long CD.

    Of course this requires a much finer awareness of the situation and teamplay with fellow tanks. It allows tanks to shine, as tanks, not as pseudo-dps.

    Second reason, why I prefer the tanks in my raid to practice aggro switches without Goad, is, it prepares them for situations where Bosses hit so hard, that even the 30s CD is way too long to tank - then goaders tend to fail. Of course I know there aren't really such encounters nowadays for endgame tanks, as T4 is too easy to tank and T4 gear too powerful.

    Still I hope for the future for more tank-skill demanding encounter as in older days, when fast rotations of approx 3-4 tanks really made sense. Much more intense tanking experience than Goad-dpsdpsdps-waitwaitwait-Goad-dpsdpsdps-waitwaitwait...

    My view.
    Well... switching aggro with Goad isn't normal tanking... :-) It should be used in emergency to save tank (not dps) or get in to rotation after you got whacked by boss to death. Even in first case, forced engage seems to be better solution as it doesn't mess with aggro table and other tank have enough time to heal up. Now, the problem is that most inexperienced tanks throw both on right & left when they're off cooldown :-)
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  6. #26

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    "If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid."

    The Guards aggro is very much about control, and two guards that know each other will be able to spam most of their aggro tools and still get the swithces when they want them and not at random.

    But when it comes to two DTs that live at the mercy of the crit gods, things change. Even with two DTs that are equal in most ways, switching aggro without goad takes time, and that time may be dangerous. Goad is simply just the safer alternative then, and you have the bonus of higher overall aggro from the tanks.

    A scalpel is all good when you want control, but sometimes a hammer just makes more sense.

    Offcourse there is also wrong ways to use goad, smashing the hammer in your own face because you like the attention is not recomended.
    I am Stian ingame...

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Civilix View Post
    "If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid."

    The Guards aggro is very much about control, and two guards that know each other will be able to spam most of their aggro tools and still get the swithces when they want them and not at random.

    But when it comes to two DTs that live at the mercy of the crit gods, things change. Even with two DTs that are equal in most ways, switching aggro without goad takes time, and that time may be dangerous. Goad is simply just the safer alternative then, and you have the bonus of higher overall aggro from the tanks.

    A scalpel is all good when you want control, but sometimes a hammer just makes more sense.

    Offcourse there is also wrong ways to use goad, smashing the hammer in your own face because you like the attention is not recomended.
    That simply isn't true about DTs or any soldier for that matter, but I guess that depends on your definition of time. If DTs are equal in most ways then agro swaps very easily between them. What you're talking about is DTs or just soldiers in general that aren't close to being equal. If your threat level is close to being the same then agro swaps very quickly and easily when the tank with threat stops generating threat... maybe one of the soldiers will have to use an irritate to get agro when the other stops doing combos etc but agro switches easily when agro between soldiers is equal regardless of which soldiers it is.

  8. #28

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    A lot of variables come into play for aggro on soldiers. For the DT's I do see a bigger level of difficulty for swapping with other class's and other players.

    But.

    The more equal the gear, the closer the builds, and the closer the rotations are to each other the better the Dt's will be able to exchange aggro together.

    On the other hand, if a sin uses cover of dusk for DT 1, and DT2 comes into the picture without those buffs, Good luck for the DT1 if he needs it off of him. 50% hate mod, with 1400 dps, is sick!

    Anyway, it all comes down to tanks getting to know each other etc. And dps too for that matter.
    Guards: Schou/Schoujr, DT: Mycroch, Conq: Kenfast, Barb: Sonofcronus, Sin's: Crazyassin/Daggerdick, Hox: Scorchnburn, Demo: Touchofdeath, Tos: Enslaveu, BS: Meballs

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blindman-au View Post
    That simply isn't true about DTs or any soldier for that matter,(...)
    If your DTs stop attacking for switches, they are not working for the highest possible aggro level...

    Never said it did not work without goad, only said it was faster and safer to use in high aggro situations. More so when you have the tanks with less control and more raw power.
    I am Stian ingame...

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Civilix View Post
    If your DTs stop attacking for switches, they are not working for the highest possible aggro level...

    Never said it did not work without goad, only said it was faster and safer to use in high aggro situations. More so when you have the tanks with less control and more raw power.
    Using goad for just "threat gen" is just a dumb idea. I'm not exactly sure if this is what you are trying to say to do, or not.

    Goad should ONLY be used for "oh ****" situations. The end!

    As far as swapping aggro, no heavy should really be allowing dps to surpass them on the hate table. With this said, tank 1 to stop hitting will allow tank2 to get aggro, and if "both" tanks are ahead of dps, it shouldn't be an issue.

    And to be completely honest, I can't believe we are still debating this after the game has been out for 5 years. I understand class changes, but seriously! Tanks shouldn't have any issues keeping it off of dps.
    Guards: Schou/Schoujr, DT: Mycroch, Conq: Kenfast, Barb: Sonofcronus, Sin's: Crazyassin/Daggerdick, Hox: Scorchnburn, Demo: Touchofdeath, Tos: Enslaveu, BS: Meballs

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