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Thread: Guild rankings and War system.

  1. #1

    Default Guild rankings and War system.

    I've always been a bit annoyed to see that the most comon complaints concerning PvP have to do with class balance and gear gaps. It could seem like gear and class balance is the only issue to AoC's pvp problems. To be honest, i don't have any fancy T4 gear, i enjoy playing HoX or barb and i don't pay too much attention to conqs. So if they chose to leave it as it is and worked on real PvP content i would be happier than seeing "details" fixed.

    Two thoughts:
    Despite gear and class balance, PvP always shines through teamplay. When players, with common goals and common play style, gather up and fight it's awesome. This can't be done with PuGs (or too rarely). PvP is fun when you chose with whom you play, and thus how you play. That's what guilds are/were for when it came to pvp. It's time to put guilds back to the center of PvP concerns. I'm sick of Pug PvP.
    When I ride through Hyboria i have memories of epic battles who took place. The slaughter's in Tesso, the spontaneous sieges of khopshef's Caravansérail, Common District riots, the fight's to enter vistrix's lair, Cimmerian End battles. Such a pitty to see all these great zones emptied of all PvP for years know.

    These would be the two axis around which i would like to see future PvP content revolve. Guilds and Open-World. I'm not exactly speaking of new content, like a new zone with new goals and such. I'm more thinking of a revamp of existing and obsolete or underused features such as:

    • Renown system.
    • Tournament mode minis.
    • Shrines of Bori.
    • Sieges.
    • Guards.
    • Criminality system.


    Renown system & Guild wars
    The bulk of PvP content

    The renown system is obsolete and has been for a while (always some would say). There's no use for it, it doesn't trigger competition between guild, it doesn't drive them to fight each other and it only shows the average pvp activity of a guild nothing more. It should represent as much the strength of a guild than it's activity and it should be used to push players to fight each others. The way i see this ranking it would count two things. Passive factors linked to the guilds state that don't move that much and active factors rating the guilds activity and succes in PvP areas:

    No code has to be inserted here.
    Non-exhaustive list.

    The higher you rank, the more powerfull your guild is thus you get better goodies: PvP xp bonus, vanity cloaks and such, cheaper PvP gear, mini-game quests only the top 3 can have... i don't know lots of things could be imagined (some horizontal progression too would be appreciated).
    But, the higher your guild is ranked the more intresting it gets to attack you.

    To spice things up, through this system you add the possibility to declare war to other guilds.
    A war lasts a week. During that time a window, seable by the whole server would be great, is enabled showing the stats of the ongoing war. Tournament minis won against each other, bori sacrifices made, altars destroyed, sieges won/lost, open world kills, and other fun stats like the guys who killed the most, the guys who were killed the most, etc.
    At the end of the week, one guild has won. Rewards scale depending on the size of the fights during the week. If it has been a shy war, with only small inconsistent squirmishs, small rewards. If it has been a bloody war with sieging, massive open-worlds battles, tournament minis fought against each other, bori sacrifices made, altars destroyed, loads of kills, a reward fitting will be delivered.
    And of course, the power gap between the two belligerents will be accounted for. Beating a stronger guild than yours will give you better rewards than beating weaker guilds. Winning wars will obviously be counted in the active part of the revamped PvP ranking.

    Hopefully, guild wars will give to stronger guilds stubborn opponents instead of docile recruits. Small guilds could wage war against each others while bigger guilds do the same.

    Note : I would also strongly suggest rewarding generously the losing guild if they fought bravely and didn't give up. If everyone dodges defeat... no PvP is possible.

    Bori Tweaks

    Main idea : give hunters something to lose and defend too. Encourage altar competition and alternative XP gain.

    • Mats are undestroyable. The only way to get rid of them is to sack them on an altar.
    • Increase the worth of looted mats.
    • Increase the % of mat drop when there's a lot of people in zone.
    • Give kills on players a chance to drop a rare mat.
    • XP decrease from sacrifices/altar-destruction that aren't guild only.
    • XP increase if an other altar is active.
    • Limit ranger tracking to 300m.
    • Show on the map when a limb, torso, head is sacrificed on a pyre.


    Sièges Tweaks

    I might be the only one, but i can't help it to find it lame when i take a look at siege setups and see between 20 and 35 demos on zone... my computer agrees with me too.

    • Add a quota of 5/6 per class maximum per double raid.
    • Adjust the siege weapons and walls to fit the above change.
    • Make walls untargettable with tab.


    Open-World Tweaks

    • Remove current Guards from the game. And add guards like in MO. When in a hub, if you get attacked by someone(s) with whom you are not at war with, a simple /guard summon's a guard that one shots the agressor(s) through bubbles and everything.
    • Grant players talking to quest givers a shield of the risen.


    Other stuff
    • Guild officier able to issue PvP quests: kill 10 players of guild X
    • Territorial conquest
    • Alliance system
    • Claimable towns like Pin-Pin, Tesso, Dinog.
    • Bounty hunting
    • ...


    * * *

    This would be the skeleton of my ideal PvP update. I don't care much about gear gap or class balancing. I want to fight with guildies, kick some asses in open-world, fight against the odds, hunt down my ennemies and spend most of my time enjoying the varaiety of hyboria's landscape during epic and spontaneous encounters instead of being stuck in narrow mini-game maps.
    Let a couple of your members be complete asshats and deal with the wars that occur and which makes your guildies time in open-world harsher. Wage war against those who ganked you in open-world, stole your keep, beat you up in duels, called you « a bunch of peasants », threaten biodiversity in CE or just looked you strange.

    Rewards through warmongering. That would be something i'd enjoy ! Unchained mini... yeah... meh... PuGs aye ?

    Voila, had bits and pieces of this post on my PC for quite a while... always thought « dont bother to put in a readable shape... useless anyway ». Stopped playing for the summer at least, but since i still slack on forums and since the new GD seems to be listenting a bit to PvP community... i guess i'll just throw this in while i can... just in case.

    I don't believe there's any easy and simple way to ressurect open-world PvP in a FFA game. But something like this is what i'd put my money on.

    P.S: FFA is awesome ! Don't ever switch AoC to a factionized game !
    Vali~The Mental Mushroom
    Vehl~The Pink Flamingo
    Vahlie~Redhead's bane
    Tisane~Kettle of Xotli
    Nvah~ . . .

  2. #2

    Default

    When I ride through Hyboria i have memories of epic battles who took place. The slaughter's in Tesso, the spontaneous sieges of khopshef's Caravansérail, Common District riots, the fight's to enter vistrix's lair, Cimmerian End battles. Such a pitty to see all these great zones emptied of all PvP for years know.
    Yes i remember those time, was so great, now the only place i find pvp is khitai, when they are people.

    Passive Factors: Active Factors:
    Average PvP level Tournament minis won
    Average Guild K/D Sieges won this week
    Average nbr of players online Kills in open-world
    Total kills of the guild Bori sacrifices this week
    I agree with this, very nice.

    The higher you rank, the more powerfull your guild is thus you get better goodies: PvP xp bonus, vanity cloaks and such, cheaper PvP gear, mini-game quests only the top 3 can have... i don't know lots of things could be imagined (some horizontal progression too would be appreciated).
    But, the higher your guild is ranked the more intresting it gets to attack you.
    Give challenge, and benefit, nice one, only thing to think, if a guild is better than everyone else, will people don't join the guild to get benefit ?

    To spice things up, through this system you add the possibility to declare war to other guilds.
    A war lasts a week. During that time a window, seable by the whole server would be great, is enabled showing the stats of the ongoing war. Tournament minis won against each other, bori sacrifices made, altars destroyed, sieges won/lost, open world kills, and other fun stats like the guys who killed the most, the guys who were killed the most, etc.
    At the end of the week, one guild has won. Rewards scale depending on the size of the fights during the week. If it has been a shy war, with only small inconsistent squirmishs, small rewards. If it has been a bloody war with sieging, massive open-worlds battles, tournament minis fought against each other, bori sacrifices made, altars destroyed, loads of kills, a reward fitting will be delivered.
    And of course, the power gap between the two belligerents will be accounted for. Beating a stronger guild than yours will give you better rewards than beating weaker guilds. Winning wars will obviously be counted in the active part of the revamped PvP ranking.
    Can we add no guard attack us, when we kill a guys from the guild we declare the war ?

    Bori Tweaks

    Main idea : give hunters something to lose and defend too. Encourage altar competition and alternative XP gain.

    Mats are undestroyable. The only way to get rid of them is to sack them on an altar.
    Increase the worth of looted mats.
    Increase the % of mat drop when there's a lot of people in zone.
    Give kills on players a chance to drop a rare mat.
    XP decrease from sacrifices/altar-destruction that aren't guild only.
    XP increase if an other altar is active.
    Limit ranger tracking to 300m.
    Show on the map when a limb, torso, head is sacrificed on a pyre.
    Like i said, did you are sure that will not make people join the guild who can own bori, and all people who are not real stronger and more number, can't kill them will never go to bori ?

    Open-World Tweaks

    Remove current Guards from the game. And add guards like in MO. When in a hub, if you get attacked by someone(s) with whom you are not at war with, a simple /guard summon's a guard that one shots the agressor(s) through bubbles and everything.
    Grant players talking to quest givers a shield of the risen.
    Think about splash damage, and aoe, if you hit a guys who are not in war, he can summon guard to kill you.

    Other stuff
    Guild officier able to issue PvP quests: kill 10 players of guild X
    Territorial conquest
    Alliance system
    Claimable towns like Pin-Pin, Tesso, Dinog.
    Bounty hunting
    I think that will only make giant bus only for kill one guys arround, without any chance to fight back.

    I imagine the way, who want do the quest ?

    X for quest.

    24 guys arround track you for kill you without any chance.

    So i agree lot of point, some don't, lets talk.

  3. #3

    Default

    bori sacrifice materials should be body parts exclusively no more picking axes and trees.

    no guards anywhere they only exist to spoil pvp and be exploited via criminal system
    FORUM PVP LVL 10

  4. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vehl View Post
    I've always been a bit annoyed to see that the most comon complaints concerning PvP have to do with class balance and gear gaps. It could seem like gear and class balance is the only issue to AoC's pvp problems. To be honest, i don't have any fancy T4 gear, i enjoy playing HoX or barb and i don't pay too much attention to conqs. So if they chose to leave it as it is and worked on real PvP content i would be happier than seeing "details" fixed.

    Two thoughts:
    Despite gear and class balance, PvP always shines through teamplay. When players, with common goals and common play style, gather up and fight it's awesome. This can't be done with PuGs (or too rarely). PvP is fun when you chose with whom you play, and thus how you play. That's what guilds are/were for when it came to pvp. It's time to put guilds back to the center of PvP concerns. I'm sick of Pug PvP.
    When I ride through Hyboria i have memories of epic battles who took place. The slaughter's in Tesso, the spontaneous sieges of khopshef's Caravansérail, Common District riots, the fight's to enter vistrix's lair, Cimmerian End battles. Such a pitty to see all these great zones emptied of all PvP for years know.

    These would be the two axis around which i would like to see future PvP content revolve. Guilds and Open-World. I'm not exactly speaking of new content, like a new zone with new goals and such. I'm more thinking of a revamp of existing and obsolete or underused features such as:

    • Renown system.
    • Tournament mode minis.
    • Shrines of Bori.
    • Sieges.
    • Guards.
    • Criminality system.


    Renown system & Guild wars
    The bulk of PvP content

    The renown system is obsolete and has been for a while (always some would say). There's no use for it, it doesn't trigger competition between guild, it doesn't drive them to fight each other and it only shows the average pvp activity of a guild nothing more. It should represent as much the strength of a guild than it's activity and it should be used to push players to fight each others. The way i see this ranking it would count two things. Passive factors linked to the guilds state that don't move that much and active factors rating the guilds activity and succes in PvP areas:

    No code has to be inserted here.
    Non-exhaustive list.

    The higher you rank, the more powerfull your guild is thus you get better goodies: PvP xp bonus, vanity cloaks and such, cheaper PvP gear, mini-game quests only the top 3 can have... i don't know lots of things could be imagined (some horizontal progression too would be appreciated).
    But, the higher your guild is ranked the more intresting it gets to attack you.

    To spice things up, through this system you add the possibility to declare war to other guilds.
    A war lasts a week. During that time a window, seable by the whole server would be great, is enabled showing the stats of the ongoing war. Tournament minis won against each other, bori sacrifices made, altars destroyed, sieges won/lost, open world kills, and other fun stats like the guys who killed the most, the guys who were killed the most, etc.
    At the end of the week, one guild has won. Rewards scale depending on the size of the fights during the week. If it has been a shy war, with only small inconsistent squirmishs, small rewards. If it has been a bloody war with sieging, massive open-worlds battles, tournament minis fought against each other, bori sacrifices made, altars destroyed, loads of kills, a reward fitting will be delivered.
    And of course, the power gap between the two belligerents will be accounted for. Beating a stronger guild than yours will give you better rewards than beating weaker guilds. Winning wars will obviously be counted in the active part of the revamped PvP ranking.

    Hopefully, guild wars will give to stronger guilds stubborn opponents instead of docile recruits. Small guilds could wage war against each others while bigger guilds do the same.

    Note : I would also strongly suggest rewarding generously the losing guild if they fought bravely and didn't give up. If everyone dodges defeat... no PvP is possible.

    Bori Tweaks

    Main idea : give hunters something to lose and defend too. Encourage altar competition and alternative XP gain.

    • Mats are undestroyable. The only way to get rid of them is to sack them on an altar.
    • Increase the worth of looted mats.
    • Increase the % of mat drop when there's a lot of people in zone.
    • Give kills on players a chance to drop a rare mat.
    • XP decrease from sacrifices/altar-destruction that aren't guild only.
    • XP increase if an other altar is active.
    • Limit ranger tracking to 300m.
    • Show on the map when a limb, torso, head is sacrificed on a pyre.


    Sièges Tweaks

    I might be the only one, but i can't help it to find it lame when i take a look at siege setups and see between 20 and 35 demos on zone... my computer agrees with me too.

    • Add a quota of 5/6 per class maximum per double raid.
    • Adjust the siege weapons and walls to fit the above change.
    • Make walls untargettable with tab.


    Open-World Tweaks

    • Remove current Guards from the game. And add guards like in MO. When in a hub, if you get attacked by someone(s) with whom you are not at war with, a simple /guard summon's a guard that one shots the agressor(s) through bubbles and everything.
    • Grant players talking to quest givers a shield of the risen.


    Other stuff
    • Guild officier able to issue PvP quests: kill 10 players of guild X
    • Territorial conquest
    • Alliance system
    • Claimable towns like Pin-Pin, Tesso, Dinog.
    • Bounty hunting
    • ...


    * * *

    This would be the skeleton of my ideal PvP update. I don't care much about gear gap or class balancing. I want to fight with guildies, kick some asses in open-world, fight against the odds, hunt down my ennemies and spend most of my time enjoying the varaiety of hyboria's landscape during epic and spontaneous encounters instead of being stuck in narrow mini-game maps.
    Let a couple of your members be complete asshats and deal with the wars that occur and which makes your guildies time in open-world harsher. Wage war against those who ganked you in open-world, stole your keep, beat you up in duels, called you « a bunch of peasants », threaten biodiversity in CE or just looked you strange.

    Rewards through warmongering. That would be something i'd enjoy ! Unchained mini... yeah... meh... PuGs aye ?

    P.S: FFA is awesome ! Don't ever switch AoC to a factionized game !
    /signed for the ideas, would be cool to see FC come and say hi, and agree they have let down open world and group/guild base pvp down and would love to ameliorate it.

  5. #5

    Default

    These were all ideas which were supposed to be introduced with the tower combat which was supposed to be available for the other siege zones. Sadly, they were stated that they were in development several times and then one day taken off the table and never thought of again. When we all asked what happnened the second game director basicily said it was a mistake and they were developing other ideas.

    The original game director once put out the idea of capital cities which were meant to be held by several guilds, however how that would have worked was never explained.

    The mercenary system (discussed at launch) which was supposed to allow smaller guilds to join other guild's sieges never happened. They also stated at one point early on that if you could not fill out a siege you could get NPC's to fill your raid, and that never happned.

    I realise the 3rd Game Director cannot be held responsible for ideas thrown out in 2008, but they really need to revisit the tower and mercenary systems. World and Siege PvP are catalysts for getting people interested in PvP, the more people involved the less individual players shine and newer people to pvp feel like they are doing something in mass pvp.

    With most of the population on PvE server's (in US), they need to open up the two border kingdom's with seperate PvP objectives to get the intertest back. Not releasing any PvP content other than a 24 man map since Bori has not helped the PvP population.

    As to Vehl's comments, one thing.

    Granting any kind of Bonus other than social rewards or small bonus PvP experience to guilds who are doing well in PvP is a truley bad idea. This will make one or two guilds consolidate all the PvP population because they will all want to win and play with the best. I belong to a guild that nobody will defend against in a seige and people will not world pvp against more than 5 minutes. I can tell you right now diversifying the population and keeping the rewards light but the content rich is the way to go, not rewarding already seasoned pvpers who already enjoy advanatges more of a competition gap.

    Whatever PvP content they look into or hopefully release needs to be enjoyable by the majority of the population, otherwise it will just turn into bori and the casual players will just go back to their 6-mans and late night T1 raids.
    Last edited by Suctum; 5th June 2013 at 03:57.
    Doomsayer 2008

  6. #6

    Default

    I'd definately like to see the changes to bori you mentioned too bad it's just a dream

  7. #7

    Default

    Guild officers issuing pvp quests? That couldn't possibly be exploited at all... No, just have guild city npcs handle that stuff.

  8. #8

    Default

    Gear gap appears to be the main reason why good and bad pvp players leave. If that is not fixed then the pvp servers will continue to empty out. Funcom has been shrinking, if they continue to shrink, forget about any of these ideas. We need players to stay and come back. For that reason the gear gap needs to be addressed.

    Anyway, even though this seems to be more pvp content then we got in the last 5 years...

    Guild Renown
    Sounds really good. Wish our other game director thought of something like this instead of deathwish and bori when they actually had resources.

    PVP Sieges
    -I think more needs to be done.
    -Reduced to 24vs24
    -Seige Armor(I just care about the look) and Tokens (for more looks...and other stuff)
    -That’s probably asking too much., considering sieges hasn’t been touched by funcom in 5 years.

    Bori
    -Couldn't we apply all the bori ideas into open world maps like the Khitai ones and kesh?
    -Would be fun to quest and do different stuff in one map while pvp’ing instead of zone, zone, zone. You can't build rivalries with people zoning all over the place.
    -And I would just delete that map because there are so many 80 maps already dividing the population like mad.

  9. #9

    Default

    Had forgotten about thise thread... how evil of me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suctum View Post
    As to Vehl's comments, one thing.

    Granting any kind of Bonus other than social rewards or small bonus PvP experience to guilds who are doing well in PvP is a truley bad idea. This will make one or two guilds consolidate all the PvP population because they will all want to win and play with the best. I belong to a guild that nobody will defend against in a seige and people will not world pvp against more than 5 minutes. I can tell you right now diversifying the population and keeping the rewards light but the content rich is the way to go, not rewarding already seasoned pvpers who already enjoy advanatges more of a competition gap.

    Whatever PvP content they look into or hopefully release needs to be enjoyable by the majority of the population, otherwise it will just turn into bori and the casual players will just go back to their 6-mans and late night T1 raids.
    Well like i mentionned i would prefer small rewards and barely significant bonuses rather than things that really matter but a carrot is still needed.
    The main idea is to have guilds against who to fight. If your guild is too powerfull and swallowed every PvP players of the game granting them the best gear at the same time... well you might be pushed aside while. That was a bit the case on my first server. The big PvP guild dominated the rest of the server a lot. Better players, better geared and in good numbers to be difficult to out-number. They got set a side while other guilds fought each other and left them alone. Dominating too much can be the worst thing happening if you like fighting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roargathor View Post
    Guild officers issuing pvp quests? That couldn't possibly be exploited at all... No, just have guild city npcs handle that stuff.
    Well everything can be exploited. To avoid exploits you need to either make it exploited in a way it's not efficient enough or not rewarding enough. But well the idea of these quests are just to align with the guilds current ennemies. If a NPC can achieve that it's the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonium View Post
    Think about splash damage, and aoe, if you hit a guys who are not in war, he can summon guard to kill you.
    And then you declare war to the ****ers guild and trash all his friends till they say sorry it will never happen again. You could go further and say a guy without a guild can't summon guards and put an RP reason behind "guilds pay for city guards protection, no guild, no protection".

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonium View Post
    Give challenge, and benefit, nice one, only thing to think, if a guild is better than everyone else, will people don't join the guild to get benefit ?
    Well it will obviously always be better to join the strongest guilds. While among them you'll lost less fights. However, in open-world they would still be vulnerable so smaller guilds could ambush them and fight them in a guerilla style. Attack the noobs of the guild, run before the good ones come along. Honestly i've always played in small guilds and it's always doable to stick it to zerg guilds. I remember a few great kheshatta fights against Avalon in it's prime or one particular Pin-Pin fight against Night Watch. And countless times where we kicked Iron Wills out of CE. The thing would be to make these achievements worth sticking with your mates rather than joining them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonium View Post
    I think that will only make giant bus only for kill one guys arround, without any chance to fight back.

    I imagine the way, who want do the quest ?

    X for quest.

    24 guys arround track you for kill you without any chance.

    So i agree lot of point, some don't, lets talk.
    That's something relatively easy to avoid as a player. And running around as a zerg makes you a target that can be ambushed, attacked by an other zerg etc. However you could simply put a timer on the player. If you kill him once, killing him a second time will only count for your quest after something like 20minuts.

    Quote Originally Posted by di85ll View Post
    PVP Sieges
    -I think more needs to be done.
    -Reduced to 24vs24
    -Seige Armor(I just care about the look) and Tokens (for more looks...and other stuff)
    -That’s probably asking too much., considering sieges hasn’t been touched by funcom in 5 years.

    Bori
    -Couldn't we apply all the bori ideas into open world maps like the Khitai ones and kesh?
    -Would be fun to quest and do different stuff in one map while pvp’ing instead of zone, zone, zone. You can't build rivalries with people zoning all over the place.
    -And I would just delete that map because there are so many 80 maps already dividing the population like mad.
    Yes sieges could take a bit more work. But i don't really know what (besides rewards ofcourse). 24 vs 24 well maybe but i'm not sure either. I had really great fun in bigger fights and servers seem really stable. I'm mostly bored by the massive mage set up (wasn't use to that on previous servers).

    Well the main problem with having the same thing as bori in other zone is mobs. Bori's great because you can move without aggoring a dozen snakes and a mammoth. So i'd more see things as border kingdoms being the main war zone and in some open-world zones lighter PvP objectives to also trigger PvP there.
    Vali~The Mental Mushroom
    Vehl~The Pink Flamingo
    Vahlie~Redhead's bane
    Tisane~Kettle of Xotli
    Nvah~ . . .

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