PVP Revival

[Rathothis]

No because no one would go there anymore ...
I am dismayed by this focus on XP. No XP, no intrest. I can't understand it.

Hmmmm... I understand your point that Bori provided you with quite a bit of interesting open world pvp. Hence your wish to keep it.

But is it really true that you wouldn't have had open world pvp without Bori? Wouldn't there have been more of it in the "normal" adventuring zones, such as Khesh and probably Paikang (due to T4 raids)? Is an extrinsic factor (like the opportunity to gain PvP XP and Prowess faster) really necessary to make people engage in world pvp?

Bori only makes sense if you believe that, otherwise, people would have stopped world pvp altogether, or at least would have done less of it than is the case now. In my view, that is rather unlikely (see e.g. how successful the B&G servers were before people realised that they had to do Khitai over and over again just like on the other servers) - but active PvPers will be better judges of that than I am.

But in any case, a reduction in the grind (OP's suggestions 3, 6, and 9) would probably take care of Bori, irrespective of whether it is removed or stays in the game.

[Chaman-bourru]

you only get 200exp every 20 minutes

+ the flags, + kills, and it's more than 200 for a win. I know for sure that a won JS with quest (not sure if quest gives more xp though) gives around 2K xp. Not to mention a decent number of minis that end up much faster than 20minuts.
And if you go there with 12 players you'll actually end up gaining more tokens via minis than digging.

Hmmmm... I understand your point that Bori provided you with quite a bit of interesting open world pvp. Hence your wish to keep it.

But is it really true that you wouldn't have had open world pvp without Bori? Wouldn't there have been more of it in the "normal" adventuring zones, such as Khesh and probably Paikang (due to T4 raids)? Is an extrinsic factor (like the opportunity to gain PvP XP and Prowess faster) really necessary to make people engage in world pvp?

Bori only makes sense if you believe that, otherwise, people would have stopped world pvp altogether, or at least would have done less of it than is the case now. In my view, that is rather unlikely (see e.g. how successful the B&G servers were before people realised that they had to do Khitai over and over again just like on the other servers) - but active PvPers will be better judges of that than I am.

But in any case, a reduction in the grind (OP's suggestions 3, 6, and 9) would probably take care of Bori, irrespective of whether it is removed or stays in the game.

There are many issues that hinder open-world PvP that bori doesn't have:
- Mobs everywhere
- Guards
- Fast travels
- PvE goals (questing, and a lot of people don't like to mix pve with pvp sadly)

Keshatta had a rather dense open-world activity back in the days but, huge ammount of XP in minis compared to open-world xp drove players to join minis more often (really ennoying to fight people who will avoid deaths by fleeing in minis). This was increased by the importance gear took. Guards arrived. And there comes a time when you get bored with players running into guards each time they have a dot on them.
While killing people of to a raid... yeah, you kill them once on their way, they rez up close to entry and get in with Shield of the Risen, end of it. Only gankable Raids are the T1 ones and BRC. Not currently the most challenging thing to do to gank undergeared newcomers or alts.

Digging Bori when you are harassed by other players is really quite challenging and pretty fun. The current problem CE has is the absence of something to sustain fights since guild "pride" has faded away (mostly pug groupes now) and a lot of diggers, and hunters turned to a more boring "i'm not going to give them the satisfaction of killing me" mindset. Hence the lack of stubborness.

To engage in open-world PvP you need to have something to do in open-world, something to attract people and make them move around and have enough space. Gear and AA being an important factor in PvP you can't expect people to spend most of their time doing something that gives absolutely no XP because they'll end up facing players that are into the gear race and will just get face rolled.
However, basing everything on the XP factor and optimising your game time around it seems kind of daft to me.

So like i said, guild rivaleries use to sustain the fights because you didn't want your rivals to have as many PvP 10s as you had and there was enough ego around to avoid digging with ennemies just for XP's sake. Now that this is old and R10 are comon stuff, some tweeks are needed to make it more enjoyable but deleating it, no.

[yuisoku]

There was tons of world pvp, but bori took it away. People farmed their levels by fighting, now they farm rocks.

Bori should be removed

[-tomhet-]

with bori came aa's and new pvp lvl's all about same time.

new pvp lvl's + bori brought need to farm nodes and do minigames for obtaining gear.

at same time with kithai came that farming bori granted great prowess gains! also players tirelessly farmed without sleep or pause first boss yun rau for massive mastery gain!!!
so in first month of aa's+bori we had full bori geared players with half of all available aa's!!!
if i recall right toke one assassin 2-3 weeks to farm from pvp6 to pvp10 (cant recall his name), he was so excited that he farmed non stop after obtaining pvp10 he left game not long after

in aquilonia server only minigame that ran most of time was hv no one realy liked all other maps.

keshatta was always very much alive independant of amount of guards.

bori provoked massive merges of small guilds in to bigger guilds came to a point where bori was always 24 manned farming most of day
when a group of players or solo players would come in they would be zerged out and sometimes a second raid would come only to zerg oposition out.

first 2 months give or take was actualy fun we had many 24vs24vs24 fights, no farming just pure guild vs guild hate/competitiveness.

as time passed and more pvp'ers gave up game(including countless rangers angry at combo removal), situation became biggest guild would be 24man farming ce with maybe a daily squirmish oposing it.
would look like 20-30 minutes of zerg opression until zerg would go back to happily farm.
the zerg was mainly farmers wich quickly left zone and pvpers would come clear out pvp'ers and give back zone to farmers from their zerg alliance, meaning even people part of zerg guild/alliance wouldnt want to farm would just come for fight and leave after spot for farmers.

after a few updated and nerfs to xp gain and after it started to allow multiple guilds to earn pvp xp, it became more and more empty zone with just 6 man groups wich would disdain grouping with more people to not loose pvp xp gain and have optimized pvp xp gain, this ofc led to more people farmers included this time to abandon game given situation wich no longer granted gain to being part of biggest guild to gain xp.

ultimatly became how it is now people spamming global for making 6man groups to go farm pvp xp, and a few lonely wolfs killing farmers once or twice untill they leave, seldom resulting in any major pvp activity, and when it happens its always pvp'ers notice brawls in ce farmers leave and "natural world pvp" appears wich inst related to bori in anyway.

so you have this mechanic ingame wich caused major exodus from pvp players wich inst enjoyed by neither farmers or pvp'ers(expect vehl)
wich doesnt promote pvp, promotes peacefull alliance for optimized gain, yet here it still remains as the biggest stain to aoc world pvp.

only good thing that ever came from bori is pyre sacrifice system wich in my eyes is best pvp content ever deployed in world pvp, wich should exist in every pvp enabled zone in pvp servers to promote more world pvp.

[Arishanya]

personally i have avoided putting my sugestions in the suggestion thread solely because it would be considered spam: too many suggestions. eagerly waiting different pvp suggestion threads.

For now that's the only official suggestion thread we have - as long as you follow the guidelines Tarib set in his first post, they won't be considered spam.

[Chaman-bourru]

There was tons of world pvp, but bori took it away. People farmed their levels by fighting, now they farm rocks.

Bori should be removed

That's a simplistic explanation of a more complexe issue.

Hearing you guys talk it seems like Bori is sololy responsible for the disapearance of PvP. Sorry but Keshatta kept fairly active till long after Bori. Out door PvP kept going on as flabbily as it use to for quite a while.
What's the diffrence between getting Zerged in Kheshatta or Zerged in Bori besides guards ? Good thing with Bori was even if bloodily outnumbered you could still be a pain and manage nice rush. Until the merge of french servers with Fury i was 90% of my game time in Bori and not for digging.

You have a problem with being outnumbered ? Why even think of doing open-world PvP then ?

new pvp lvl's + bori brought need to farm nodes and do minigames for obtaining gear.

That's a really big misconception. It didn't force anything or anyone to farm nodes. Yeah of course if you are all about having the absolute best gear to have absolutely every chances on your side you had to. But if you are more casual and relaxed about the gear gap you didn't NEED to do anything else than enjoy the fight possibilities. What's wrong with players and greed ? Sorry to say that but if you feel the "need" to dig there's kind of a problem.
You could get gear without digging, even the bori gear, it was just much slower but what the hell, at least it was fun pvping to get it.

Damn, i have so awesome memories of fight there even though playing in small guilds. But i'll stop arguing about Bori... and polluting OP's thread.

[kandreas]

A guild I was in on Cimmeria ages ago would field one or two groups and we'd go mess with the guilds in Bori, ganking stragglers and mining resources, which would cause scout parties to come and take us out.

Fun times.

But at the end of the day, certain people had the ability to get high pvp levels without doing much work. That's the hard truth. In saying that I only played for three months once and got to pvp 2 at level 80 which is very tough imo because we never did Bori.... more like we couldn't do it because we weren't big enough. If I had a played a few more months and kept doing my minis and ow pvp I would have gotten pvp 5 in half a year or more. Compare that to someone doing Bori and you'll see where most of us had a problem with it.

For pvp to work in this game you have to incorporate it INTO the game. There should be no line between pve and pvp. In saying that purely doing pve should not yield pvp rewards. Whatever... People in the Joel Bylos thread, including myself, commented on it there.

[Baasura]

A guild I was in on Cimmeria ages ago would field one or two groups and we'd go mess with the guilds in Bori, ganking stragglers and mining resources, which would cause scout parties to come and take us out.

Fun times.

But at the end of the day, certain people had the ability to get high pvp levels without doing much work. That's the hard truth. In saying that I only played for three months once and got to pvp 2 at level 80 which is very tough imo because we never did Bori.... more like we couldn't do it because we weren't big enough. If I had a played a few more months and kept doing my minis and ow pvp I would have gotten pvp 5 in half a year or more. Compare that to someone doing Bori and you'll see where most of us had a problem with it.

For pvp to work in this game you have to incorporate it INTO the game. There should be no line between pve and pvp. In saying that purely doing pve should not yield pvp rewards. Whatever... People in the Joel Bylos thread, including myself, commented on it there.

M8 i dont know what game you have been playing but saying that it takes half year or more doing minis to get pvp 5 is silly.
I just started sin recently and doing only minis. Got to lvl 3 in 50 minis or so. Not 50 wins but 50 minis.
I got to pvp 2 in couple of days, and yes it is that fast.
Getting to lvl 4 is uber fast, than to 5 just regular fast and than it gets bit slower.

[Vasylyos]

Its sad to see this post derailing to Bori arguements.

THE BASIS OF REVIVING PVP IS ''TAKING PVE OUT OF IT''

Now lets face it Bori is PVE so no matter if you had some fun or not Vehl it needs to go out.

Soon T5 raid will come out, Sets with bonus values too. What will became of PVP when people almost or full AA (cause of way better xp gain from PVE) and PVE supreme gear join PVP? The answer is seen in every minigame I face T4 characters. Tanks doing too much dps with little skill needed and raidboss mitigation values regardless of pvp lvls. Rogues doing insane dps (especially sins and rangers), if skilled they can win a game almost alone. As for healers and mages (BS excluded) the situation is just laughable. Is that the PVP you want? Do you want to overcome your opponent cause you farmed instances and T4 more than him? How would you feel if PVP gear didnt have the''PVP only stats'' Would you people go PVP to get the protection armor from PVP or farm T3?

PVP needs a highly controlled enviroment to be enjoyable and competitive. AAs,features and so on should be balanced on a specific item budget, hence no PVE progression gear and advanced AA gain. Competitive is the key word here cause right now although there is a progression in PVP to some point competition is out of the window as people care only about the kills/deaths. Public acknowlegement and rewards of players considering specific goals is mostly needed.

PS. As to people that think that its normal to need 550.000xp to get from lvl9 to lvl10 and are satisfied with their rate of progression while you can get full T4 in a few weeks and be better geared you have my pity

[Chaman-bourru]

Now lets face it Bori is PVE so no matter if you had some fun or not Vehl it needs to go out.

PVP needs a highly controlled enviroment to be enjoyable and competitive. AAs,features and so on should be balanced on a specific item budget, hence no PVE progression gear and advanced AA gain. Competitive is the key word here cause right now although there is a progression in PVP to some point competition is out of the window as people care only about the kills/deaths. Public acknowlegement and rewards of players considering specific goals is mostly needed.

This is were i disagree and also get why people like so much controlled features. Open-world is everything but a controlled environement and it's meant to be that way. It's not meant to be competitive as minis are it doesn't follow the same codes.

Open-world isn't about balance fight. It's about overcoming the odds, gathering people and achieving stuff with what you have at a moment 'T'. The basic of open-world is that, if you are a complete noob, you can still kill stuff by out numbering people. And on the otherside of the spectrum, if you are the most imba undefeatable player ever in 1 vs 1, you can still be vulnerable.

Open-world is for a rather mature and relaxed population that doesn't get emo when they get killed by players they consider as noobs (or just killed). Thus seeing how frequent the "Duh' go 1 vs 1 noob" comes out these day i understand it isn't meant for the average MMO player.

PvP isn't just shaved oiled bodies fighting in skirts in front of an audience.