Guard Suggestion

[Boesch]

Hit me up any time in game to have a look at things, some people say this, some say that, I'm always curious to see what can be done.

1300-2200 is a crazily large variance in damage so it suggests that is what you are doing in a variety of fights rather than one set encounter.

The best measure IMO is Zodiac, single target (selective parsing or GTFO ) and compare.

[Texan615]

It's not just me. We had two other DTs my level, if not even better than myself. I hadn't parsed a fight in a long time, but my Guard when I was playing it regularly could hold on what is essentially a 2400 DPS average threshold. That varies based on hate modifiers, group buffs, etc., that are really too numerous to mention. I've tanked for Necros doing a sustained 2900 DPS who never pulled, and I've tanked for baddie Carnage Conqs only doing 1700 or so who cannot seem to keep aggro off themselves. On the other hand, my DT doing between 1300 and 2200 DPS while tanking was on a whole other level from the Guard. Schou was not incompetent. I could probably play my DT with one hand and click abilities and directionals and lock him on aggro on the vast majority of fights.

These single target parse numbers or aoe parse numbers?

And btw, we only care about Zodiac single target dps, no one gives a real sh!t about any other stuff.

[bogus]

Using Firemonk as example again

Reliquary is terrrible example. Both guard and DT can solo tank it having t2 migigation level gear.

I would say it's easy on guard, since StA allows him be full Enduring during 100-75 and 50-25%. When you add aa heal on 75-50, and Last Stand for last 25%.
You says it's easy on DT because they have enough dps for self heal.
Someone can come it's trivial on Conq with his 2 boubles.
All of those is true.

Bah, all khitai 6-man maybe beside Jade Dugout, sin and fire boss in Tian'an can be solo tanked by any (not-naked) and competent soldier.

Use a fight without aggro resets and the DT will catch up just fine with that aggro locking Guard, there's no surprise element to be had here.

Name one fight that can't be solo tanked and leaves time to catch up and lock out. In theory it's possible. In practice, there is no such fight in AoC atm.

And since dps has been so much more important ever since Khitai, you will naturally use a DT before a Guard.

That is idiotic. Otherewise following this:
- You don't want to use barb because carnage conq or sin do better.
- You don't want to use PoMs or BS, because ToS using Dark Idol does better healing even counting debuff on big heal.
- You don't want hox, you don't want demo, you don't want ranger.
So let's leave in game only dt, conq, sins, toses and necros, because they can do same things alone and better.

Most always DT > Guard.

In dps only.

During last 3 years I've played with more than half soldiers from Crom top guilds. Some of those that left are called by theirs guild - "noobs who don't know how to play" and I haven't meet single DT who would outstand guards to make them usless. So or all awesome DTs are hiding so I won't be able to learn something from them, or DT's aren't so superrior.

I would say in my privete top5 tanks if not in top3 are 2 guards. I would pick them to raid before any DT.

[Areana]

I agree that there are indeed bosses that favour Guardians over DTs. I tanked Yah Chieng (not Golems but Yah Chieng himself) on my DT a few days ago and I sucked

I also think that the DPS a DT can do is not such a small difference between the two, because the DPS of DTs and Conqs make them useful even if they're not tanking. On a Guardian it's either tank or be useless. So, if there's a boss that favours Guardians, DTs (and Conqs) can go crazy over DPS. On bosses that favour DTs Guardians can just as well go afk ... or do crappy jobs.

[kalston]

I also think that the DPS a DT can do is not such a small difference between the two, because the DPS of DTs and Conqs make them useful even if they're not tanking. On a Guardian it's either tank or be useless. So, if there's a boss that favours Guardians, DTs (and Conqs) can go crazy over DPS. On bosses that favour DTs Guardians can just as well go afk ... or do crappy jobs.

Yes, I think we can all agree on that.
IMO Guard can tank okay but I still feel that something's not right because back in the days it was the only soldier wearing full plate and was basically truly THE main tank. Nowadays both DTs and Conqs can be MTs with fairly similar mitigation and aggro and at the same time they do a crazy amount of DPS. Guard doesn't really do anything noticeably better than other tanks IMO. Burst mitigation yes maybe, but it's not a very noticeable difference. In 6 mans it's much smarter to get DTs and Conqs because the DPS they do makes a world of a difference. In a DPS race like Tian it's very noticeable for example.

I am not sure if Guard really lacks aggro compared to other tanks though, but the exceptional (there's not so many of them) DTs definitely lock out my guard (meaning I have to Goad/FE) on some fights. But of course it is the other way around on some other fights. So... fine, as long as it's not the DPS pulling aggro all is good I guess. I find aggro swapping to be much smoother in general with conqs (or guards ofc).

One last thing I'd like to mention is from my healer point of view: I much prefer good DTs over conqs and guards and find it MUCH MUCH easier to keep them alive. They have so much self-healing (and also their own reliable OT : dread shadow) that when stacked with the healing I bring them it's just insane, the slightly lower mitigation compared to other tanks isn't even noticeable because of it (provided they don't run out of mana ofc, in Coppice it can be harsh for DTs for example). As a general rule, in 6 mans I rarely even use the big heal at all with DTs, with conqs and guards I HAVE to use it a lot more frequently (point of view of a solo healer here ofc). As a result I can also focus more on DPS than healing when it's DTs tanking, so everyone's happy and everything's smoother.

IMO, DT is crazy OP and the way it scales with gear (crits, dps, lifetaps etc) is just insane.

[KullOfValusia]

DT'S are a tad OPed but its not really that that makes guards unenjoyable to play. Its the fact that they really have no tanking role in the party anymore.

In 6mans, you definetly want to go DT over guard. When your damage is divided between 24 people, its not a huge deal but when its divided by 6 people it can mean success or failure. Plus DTs can tank any 6 man as good if not better then a guard no questions asked... so really why bring a guard?

In raids, short of the emperor I would say a DT would be better tanker and less of a mana sponge for healers.

[-tomhet-]

DT'S are a tad OPed but its not really that that makes guards unenjoyable to play. Its the fact that they really have no tanking role in the party anymore.

In 6mans, you definetly want to go DT over guard. When your damage is divided between 24 people, its not a huge deal but when its divided by 6 people it can mean success or failure. Plus DTs can tank any 6 man as good if not better then a guard no questions asked... so really why bring a guard?

In raids, short of the emperor I would say a DT would be better tanker and less of a mana sponge for healers.

especialy in 6mans with guard everyone in group can go full out dps from start given strong point of guard is burst agro from first second

if you dont like playing guardian then dont play it.


truth still remains guardian in right hands is immortal in pvp with good burst damage; and in pve can tank any boss at same lvl if not superior in agro to other tanks.

now to actualy be fair to title of thread ill post a few tweak sugestions to actualy improve guardian feat trees.

.savage counterstrike
the intent of making counterstike and retaialion work for guardian utterly failed, despite fact you can stack all counterstrike combos debuffs on target;
its just not eficient and whoever tries it just gets laughed because its that bad to use it.

there for feat subterrefuge would be a good replacer for this given no juggernaut guard can reach it and tempest guards dont feat it.

along side this if it isnt obvious counterstrike combos purpose should be reviewd because they are simply not worth using.

.moral boost
it would boost players moral if this cluter feat would be removed, because simply its that useless

.momentum
this feat should be in tempest and have its cost reduced to 2 points max, it a feat more usable in pvp not even interesting in pve given your expected to tank not run away and charge, ofc in pvp the faster you can charge again is welcomed.

.strike and guard
this feat/combo is very weak and should be improved, how?
make it 1 step combo or even instant like bv so it easier to use on situations its needed to mitigate higher hits.
alternatively just increase evade buff duration and keep it as 2 step combo.

.juggernaut desperatly needs a damage buff added to it, its cc resistence its not needed, because unless you increase by a lot base damage of 1handed combos juggernaut will never be a viable pvp tree.

.fortitude+precise atacks
these could be made more "reachable by placing them at begining tempest tree.

AA's

sta
adjust it so it doesnt have more then 2 retaliatory hits per stack of sta.
(i think this video link explains why, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XegbIRdLAco)

champion spirit
realy bad aa relying on a combo no one uses given its crap(counterstrike)

prime initiative
since nerf its not worthy of being golden perk, plz make it a silver perk and everyone is happy

Sustaining Wrath
any ability/spell wich removes health once its off is crap and unreliable if your tanking, would be nice it was an ability to grant a big heal from consuming wrath stacks instead.

master at arms
this one is crap aa just totaly rethink it, make it leech life to guard maybe or plain old health tap buff

deliberate reprisal
increase its bonus its not worth it in current state
--------------------------############-------------------------

btw agro-locking inst a skill, swapping agro without any dps'r pulling agro is a skill, all bosses ingame can be tanked by 1 of each soldier swapping agro in equal terms.

feel free to keep crying because reality still stands guardian is a great tank in the hands of a player who knows what hes doing

[Schmuls]

Reliquary is terrrible example. Both guard and DT can solo tank it having t2 migigation level gear.

It was a perfect example. I already mentioned it can be solo tanked by them all, the difference is that a Guard will be at the end of it's cooldowns and get wrecked half way through if it were not for the 25% intervalls.

And you even point it out that you are using the 25% intervals to use your cooldowns...thx for ignoring what I already said.

Name one fight that can't be solo tanked and leaves time to catch up and lock out. In theory it's possible. In practice, there is no such fight in AoC atm.

Uh...Saddur? All conditions are met. But since the Guard would be dead by the time the DT catches up...well.
That's why I said aggro locking is a solo tanking thing, since aggro switching is so essential in fights that aren't crazy easy.

That is idiotic. Otherewise following this:
- You don't want to use barb because carnage conq or sin do better.
- You don't want to use PoMs or BS, because ToS using Dark Idol does better healing even counting debuff on big heal.
- You don't want hox, you don't want demo, you don't want ranger.
So let's leave in game only dt, conq, sins, toses and necros, because they can do same things alone and better.

While true, still other issues. Though we joke about it often enough


But well, enough with you, since we are only turning in circles for no reason.

[Midge50]

We only had one person who selectively parsed Zodiac, and he was gone before I quit as well. I was over 1700 tanking Zodiac, and that was well before getting full T4. The parse ranges I gave are all due to various fight factors, if I'm getting trolled by a PoM with Blessing, etc.

[kennyfisterbotm]

especialy in 6mans with guard everyone in group can go full out dps from start given strong point of guard is burst agro from first second

if you dont like playing guardian then dont play it.


truth still remains guardian in right hands is immortal in pvp with good burst damage; and in pve can tank any boss at same lvl if not superior in agro to other tanks.

now to actualy be fair to title of thread ill post a few tweak sugestions to actualy improve guardian feat trees.

.savage counterstrike
the intent of making counterstike and retaialion work for guardian utterly failed, despite fact you can stack all counterstrike combos debuffs on target;
its just not eficient and whoever tries it just gets laughed because its that bad to use it.

there for feat subterrefuge would be a good replacer for this given no juggernaut guard can reach it and tempest guards dont feat it.

along side this if it isnt obvious counterstrike combos purpose should be reviewd because they are simply not worth using.

.moral boost
it would boost players moral if this cluter feat would be removed, because simply its that useless

.momentum
this feat should be in tempest and have its cost reduced to 2 points max, it a feat more usable in pvp not even interesting in pve given your expected to tank not run away and charge, ofc in pvp the faster you can charge again is welcomed.

.strike and guard
this feat/combo is very weak and should be improved, how?
make it 1 step combo or even instant like bv so it easier to use on situations its needed to mitigate higher hits.
alternatively just increase evade buff duration and keep it as 2 step combo.

.juggernaut desperatly needs a damage buff added to it, its cc resistence its not needed, because unless you increase by a lot base damage of 1handed combos juggernaut will never be a viable pvp tree.

.fortitude+precise atacks
these could be made more "reachable by placing them at begining tempest tree.

AA's

sta
adjust it so it doesnt have more then 2 retaliatory hits per stack of sta.
(i think this video link explains why, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XegbIRdLAco)

champion spirit
realy bad aa relying on a combo no one uses given its crap(counterstrike)

prime initiative
since nerf its not worthy of being golden perk, plz make it a silver perk and everyone is happy

Sustaining Wrath
any ability/spell wich removes health once its off is crap and unreliable if your tanking, would be nice it was an ability to grant a big heal from consuming wrath stacks instead.

master at arms
this one is crap aa just totaly rethink it, make it leech life to guard maybe or plain old health tap buff

deliberate reprisal
increase its bonus its not worth it in current state
--------------------------############-------------------------

btw agro-locking inst a skill, swapping agro without any dps'r pulling agro is a skill, all bosses ingame can be tanked by 1 of each soldier swapping agro in equal terms.

feel free to keep crying because reality still stands guardian is a great tank in the hands of a player who knows what hes doing

Again, adjusting a "pve" tool to fit a person's fowl on pvp.

Do what "good pvp sins" do and watch for the stack of stall, white hit and call it a day.

The stall effect doesn't happen within 1 hit of each reflection. The fact that your health went down within .1 seconds should be reason enough to look for the buff on the tanks buff tree. In other words, it gives you a chance to react before you kill yourself.