Builds

[stiiixy]

Just have to add.. Stuff like this usually comes from either dpsers who can't be in the top tier on parsers, or from tanks who constantly drop agro to dps. I do use combat logs and parse tools for purposes of selfimprovement, and spotting the slackers.

Parses are the only tool we have in Age of Conan as to determine how a player is performing. On fights where there are enrage timers, dps is essential for success. Knowing who performs well and not is very important, and for Necro and Demo especially at Entity. 200dps difference on one or two characters may very well be the difference of a wipe or a kill. There was one Entity kill where a guildie sent me a tell after the kill, "how did you parse 350 more dps than me?!" I pulled up the parser, and checked damage sources, and I had casted Fires of Gehenna 43 more times than him, while having the same or a bit more hits from the other spells. He was slacking, I was not.

I was in a KK run the other day and the Guardian kept dropping agro on the sisters in Malice. Me on my Assassin, I was balancing the bosses, dpsing when I could. And constantly grabbing agro on the Guardians boss just after a few combos. Pulled up my parsing tool, and quickly noticed he did not use Shield Slam or Guard Destroyer, and only used Cry of Havoc once the past 5-6 minutes before the group wiped due to him getting emotes.

Point is... If everyone could be the "parsing whores" that you describe, and not only the people who are a bit above averagely interested in the game, there would be much more successful groups and raids. The parsers never lie... Some classes gets more for free than others just by group setup but the point remains, if you do most damage, you are on top of the list. If you slack a lot, you are towards the middle or even bottom of the list. Thats just the truth, there is no circumventing that fact.

I dont spellweave on my Demo's because, like yourself, been playing for 6 years and have some experience to back that up. But, unlike yourself, I have had massive breaks in between, and my Demo's spray-and-pray (spray-on-prey? heheh) generic Waves builds sometimes far outmatch the random PUG raids I like to attend, quite often shattered (pissed, drunk whatever you wanna call it), for the sake of...



fun....



ZOMGS what a wasted slot!

Specifically the reason I dont SW is because I have DO have the experience, and quite often those pugs are there for a lot of people to cut their teeth (I admirte the patience of the couple of PUG raider guilds, Exceptional!) and it's far more effective to NOT be in SW. So, chaos ensues, and I'm left standing on my altar looking like a right fool, and incapable of producing anything meaningful to the raid as backup. Or run away /*cough* kite.

As Suctum said, your comment can be easily construed as elitest, (whether or not it is, well that's for intepretation I guess). We're not all in it to win it, sugartits.

Oh, and I quite often end up easily being top 5 on parsers. There's always a smart arse though who beats me, but I'm not really impressed =D Again, parsers are open to intepretation (AE builds in a mob pull fest? pffft)

[Suctum]

I dont spellweave on my Demo's because, like yourself, been playing for 6 years and have some experience to back that up. But, unlike yourself, I have had massive breaks in between, and my Demo's spray-and-pray (spray-on-prey? heheh) generic Waves builds sometimes far outmatch the random PUG raids I like to attend, quite often shattered (pissed, drunk whatever you wanna call it), for the sake of...



fun....



ZOMGS what a wasted slot!

Specifically the reason I dont SW is because I have DO have the experience, and quite often those pugs are there for a lot of people to cut their teeth (I admirte the patience of the couple of PUG raider guilds, Exceptional!) and it's far more effective to NOT be in SW. So, chaos ensues, and I'm left standing on my altar looking like a right fool, and incapable of producing anything meaningful to the raid as backup. Or run away /*cough* kite.

As Suctum said, your comment can be easily construed as elitest, (whether or not it is, well that's for intepretation I guess). We're not all in it to win it, sugartits.

Oh, and I quite often end up easily being top 5 on parsers. There's always a smart arse though who beats me, but I'm not really impressed =D Again, parsers are open to intepretation (AE builds in a mob pull fest? pffft)

I don't think my comment was elitist, I'm just making a point that parses can be "selective" and your group make up, their buffs, your buffs, and other outside factors contribute to forming that equation. It's not so black and white as that guy makes it seems, who is clearly just a raider and doesn't play outside of that realm and uses a parse to judge other players as the end all be all.

Judging people by a parse is the most elitist foolish thing people can do, unless everyone has the same group conditions, buffs, and outside factors. Honestly, you don't need a parse to see who's bad in a raid and a waste of space, if you can't tell that just by watching you should look at yourself...

[Belatsunat]

Meh. Ice Strike is far from being the more mana-consuming spell

True, but with Chilling Breath increasing its cast time to 3 seconds you simply won't have the opportunity to use cannibalism more than once every three seconds, since you can't stop mid cast to munch on your own liver.

Regarding that silly parse discussion... While my experience in AoC is still limited this debate transcends MMOs, and the arguments are quite similar everywhere. And I have to say I basically agree with Shax. Especially on this part:

Stuff like this usually comes from either dpsers who can't be in the top tier on parsers, [...]

A parser is a helpful tool, one that of course can be (and often enough is) abused or misused. Anyone with some modicum of intelligence should be able to take group buffs, equipment discrepancies etc. into account when looking at the numbers. But when one member of class X does one third of the DPS of another, then a 5% total damage buff won't cover the difference.

And more power to you when you can keep a close eye on all raid members in an encounter that is demanding enough that parse analysis is actually warranted. I know I have my hands full doing my part, and am glad to have a helpful tool for post-fight analysis of the performance of the raid, as well as my own.

On Spellweaving: To maximize your output as a demonologist you have to learn its ins and outs, when you can and can not use it. I am still in the proces of doing so. That does not mean you should go full tilt every perceived chance you get. If you are running Monestary and know the tank is new/inexperienced, by all means give her some slack. But claiming to be able to play your class well for me does include the ability to squeeze out these last percentage points when required. And I doubt you can learn that when you never use the ability.

[Shax84]

I dont spellweave on my Demo's because, like yourself, been playing for 6 years and have some experience to back that up. But, unlike yourself, I have had massive breaks in between, and my Demo's spray-and-pray (spray-on-prey? heheh) generic Waves builds sometimes far outmatch the random PUG raids I like to attend, quite often shattered (pissed, drunk whatever you wanna call it), for the sake of...

fun....

ZOMGS what a wasted slot!

Specifically the reason I dont SW is because I have DO have the experience, and quite often those pugs are there for a lot of people to cut their teeth (I admirte the patience of the couple of PUG raider guilds, Exceptional!) and it's far more effective to NOT be in SW. So, chaos ensues, and I'm left standing on my altar looking like a right fool, and incapable of producing anything meaningful to the raid as backup. Or run away /*cough* kite.

As Suctum said, your comment can be easily construed as elitest, (whether or not it is, well that's for intepretation I guess). We're not all in it to win it, sugartits.

Oh, and I quite often end up easily being top 5 on parsers. There's always a smart arse though who beats me, but I'm not really impressed =D Again, parsers are open to intepretation (AE builds in a mob pull fest? pffft)

Well of course I am talking optimal circumstances and it doesn't take long until you realize the agro potential of the tank you are in group with. Reduce to only Hellfire Stream and Shock, or chug a selfres pot and die ^^, In a guild raid/group this is of no concern since you would know the tanks and fights. However, a tank has to be pretty damn crappy if you can still take agro after using Planar Shift and Subtle Illusion premature to your nukes. I tanked Palace on my Conqueror with some blues, some t2 and a few k6 epics, and held Lilburne's Demo at 1850 dps without losing agro once. He used antihate spells at the right time and it was no problem at all.

The point of presenting a good build is knowing what and how you CAN squeeze maximum out of it, not that you MUST do it every occation possible.

As you say, and I also said, parsers are exactly what happens in a raid, and you need to take height for that. Don't yell at the kiter at Sheng for doing low dps... However, last raid, I parsed 1350dps on my DT at Sheng, being no. 2 on total dps. Never been that high on the damage list on DT on that encounter before, it's usually 7-10th or around there. Demos, Necros well below 1000dps. And we had 10 seconds left on enrage timer when we killed him. If I who was tanking Sheng had done 800dps rather than 1350dps, we would have wiped. Why do I do it? Because I can, and feel it is better than having to goad or fe every time I want to taste agro.

Use the parser for what it is, a tool, that can help in most cases, and tools needs to be used correctly. http://youtu.be/pqDnFUWzftk?t=1m40s

[Shax84]

I don't think my comment was elitist, I'm just making a point that parses can be "selective" and your group make up, their buffs, your buffs, and other outside factors contribute to forming that equation. It's not so black and white as that guy makes it seems, who is clearly just a raider and doesn't play outside of that realm and uses a parse to judge other players as the end all be all.

Judging people by a parse is the most elitist foolish thing people can do, unless everyone has the same group conditions, buffs, and outside factors. Honestly, you don't need a parse to see who's bad in a raid and a waste of space, if you can't tell that just by watching you should look at yourself...

I am raiding, instancing, levelling and grinding. Builds for PvP is of not that huge a concern as PvE, the impact is all different and there is not the same need for sustained dps and mana management. Survivability and burst are key elements there.

For your 2nd paragraph, I am not stupid, I know that. Make a group for Necromancer with ToS spamming Idol and Life of Set on pets, Aura of Dread Fury, Conq buffs, etc.. The Necromancer in group with out of range people or players who don't know synergies, of course it is not fair to compare. As I said to Stiiixy parsers are a tool and needs to be used correctly...

[Korando-AoC]

Come on Demo never spellweaving in raids.. Wth is that?!?

I'm not saying that you must ALWAYS spellweave, but when it is allowed to do that (your tanks hold aggro, you don't have to reposition / move constantly, ecc.) a demo not spellweaving in a raid is simply downperforming.

It's not something subjective to discussion, it's simple as that.

You can say "Hey my raid group has cleared T4 1.000.000 of times and I never spellweave".
Ofc it's possible, very few raid groups (or none at all) have 24 people all performing at the top, and it's possible to clear every raid instance with a certain amount of slacking (read players who perform significantly below optimal).

But more bad performers you have, harder it becomes.

So please, don't try to spread misinformation.
Spellweaving is not subjective, when it's right to use it, you either use it or you are doing bad.

Would you like your healers to never cast Green Heal or tanks to have only the 80% of the aggro they could have?

Same considerations apply to damage dealers.

I know good players who like to play more or less safer, but that has nothing to do with this.
Spellweaving is not something you can cut out stright away from your gameplay if you want to perform properly on a caster.

[Korando-AoC]

Judging people by a parse is the most elitist foolish thing people can do, unless everyone has the same group conditions, buffs, and outside factors. Honestly, you don't need a parse to see who's bad in a raid and a waste of space, if you can't tell that just by watching you should look at yourself...

That's really not totally true.
Yes parsers are subjective to several conditions (group setups, luck on crits, bad luck on a specific circumstance etc).
But if you watch several parsers you can pretty say for damage dealers who is performing properly and who is not.

There are good players who like to play always safe, and good players who like to play on the edge.
These 2 types of good players generally are separated by 10% DPS more or less. The difference is that the 2nd type of player dies a bit more than the first.

But you can easily see the difference with a bad player, who is always doing 50% or less damage than the other 2.

There is also the suicide type of player.
Some degree of suicide is ok when for example you play first time with new tanks, you fight first time with a certain class on a fight (and you don't know how much the boss is weak to Magic Damage, for example), or other situations like these.
But of course suiciders who constantly go brainless full nuke and die, even if you repeat the fight 100 times, are bad performers aswell (unless there is a clear problem on tank or healer side).

I throw percentages and numbers just as an example, but with a good amount of experience on fights you should be able to know what kind of damage you can expect from different classes, and be able to read parser properly.

The only parser which can kinda "lies" is the healing parser, for several reasons.

[Shax84]

Two excellent posts!

Thank you, Korando-AoC. The thread can be closed now. ^^,

[Suctum]

Two excellent posts!

Thank you, Korando-AoC. The thread can be closed now. ^^,

I would limit saying "someone who doesn't spellweave is a waste of a raid spot", because at one time you say it's not subjective and then you agree with Korando it is, which one is it?

I'm saying there are several encounters where, if you SW, you increase your risk dying...why should people waste a conq rez for someone being greedy on the parse, I wouldn't personally. You make it seem like pve is difficult and only a select few who scrutinize a parse can do well, anyone can do the same given the right conditions,perfect groupings, and awesome tanks.

My point, if you do 1850 dps and I do 1802 dps, it doesn't mean anything that you got 48 more dps than me, the problem is when someone does 1850 and someone of the same class under the same circumstance does 1100, and you don't need a parse to see that.

[Maark]

Thank you, Korando-AoC. The thread can be closed now. ^^,

Why the flying frak should the thread, in which we discuss demo builds, be closed?